Maemo Elections - Extended
Re: Maemo Elections - Extended
Re: Maemo Elections - Extended
Peter Bart
On Wed, 4 Apr 2012 15:24:32 +0100
Graham Cobb <g+770@cobb.uk.net> wrote:
> On Wednesday 04 April 2012 14:40:42 Felipe Crochik wrote:
> > I have never left! Have to say that for personal reasons haven't
> > been as involved as before but I am still here!
>
> Many of us are still around as users, even if we are no longer doing
> active development on Maemo. But we are grateful to those who are
> still doing development!
>
<snip>
Hear hear!! 1+
--
Best Regards,
Peter The Plumber
<petertheplumber@att.net>
Graham Cobb <g+770@cobb.uk.net> wrote:
> On Wednesday 04 April 2012 14:40:42 Felipe Crochik wrote:
> > I have never left! Have to say that for personal reasons haven't
> > been as involved as before but I am still here!
>
> Many of us are still around as users, even if we are no longer doing
> active development on Maemo. But we are grateful to those who are
> still doing development!
>
<snip>
Hear hear!! 1+
--
Best Regards,
Peter The Plumber
<petertheplumber@att.net>
Re: Maemo Elections - Extended
2012-04-04 15:10 UTC
Le 04.04.2012 16:35, Peter Bart a écrit :
> On Wed, 4 Apr 2012 15:24:32 +0100
> Graham Cobb <g+770@cobb.uk.net> wrote:
>
>> On Wednesday 04 April 2012 14:40:42 Felipe Crochik wrote:
>> > I have never left! Have to say that for personal reasons haven't
>> > been as involved as before but I am still here!
>>
>> Many of us are still around as users, even if we are no longer doing
>> active development on Maemo. But we are grateful to those who are
>> still doing development!
>>
> <snip>
>
> Hear hear!! 1+
+1
--
Benoît HERVIER - http://khertan.net/
> On Wed, 4 Apr 2012 15:24:32 +0100
> Graham Cobb <g+770@cobb.uk.net> wrote:
>
>> On Wednesday 04 April 2012 14:40:42 Felipe Crochik wrote:
>> > I have never left! Have to say that for personal reasons haven't
>> > been as involved as before but I am still here!
>>
>> Many of us are still around as users, even if we are no longer doing
>> active development on Maemo. But we are grateful to those who are
>> still doing development!
>>
> <snip>
>
> Hear hear!! 1+
+1
--
Benoît HERVIER - http://khertan.net/
Re: Maemo Elections - Extended
2012-04-04 16:05 UTC
Hi,
>>> Many of us are still around as users, even if we are no longer doing
>>> active development on Maemo. But we are grateful to those who are
>>> still doing development!
>> <snip>
>>
>> Hear hear!! 1+
> +1
This is exactly my issue with continuing the Maemo Community... While my
impetus always dwelt more in the philosophical, I was always also a
doer. (Thanks for putting it that way, Graham.) Sure, much of my
community-oriented communiqué was about how our community worked and
survived, but it was said with the idea that it would get others to be
doers as well.
This being said, most of the people who take part on this list are (or
were) doers within the community. But, having watched the community from
the outside for quite sometime now (the extent of my participation has
been in "liking" or "not liking" posts on the pmo feed), I have
witnessed the "we love you guys for continuing to do stuff, but we just
want you to do it for us" mentality all too much.
At the height of the maemo project, maemo.org had roughly 25,000
registered users. Of that, maybe 1% or 2% were the doers. I'd imagine,
at this point, the people who are actively doing number around ~50
people (not counting those who are still being paid to run the maemo.org
infrastructure). And, you can't even take http://maemo.org/profile/list/
seriously because I'm still in the top 15 after not having participated
in much for a very long time.
Having served three terms of Community Council, it was easy to see,
first-hand, the decline of participation within the community. I think
I, more than anyone, made a point to put Council and community
communication in the forefront, yet the response was always lackluster.
It was disheartening, but my love for the project and the community was
great enough to keep me going.
Now, we're faced with a handful of people who really desire to see maemo
continue. It's very commendable. But, it's also, imho, based largely in
nostalgia. If maemo were, in fact, really something that the community
wanted to succeed, we'd see many more doers and not so many "thank you
for doing for me" sentiments.
There might still be a lot of action on tmo. That's great. But, how many
of those people are asking for help as opposed to giving it? How many
are requesting applications rather than developing them? How many
actually know about this election or the Council in general? How many
are still wondering when the next maemo device will be released because
they don't even take time to read more than the smattering of "I need
another startup video" posts that interest them?
Yes, I'm being a little harsh. But, as someone who remembers when the
community _really_ was active, this just doesn't cut it.
In my eyes, "maemo is dead, long live maemo" is a fun idea, but it isn't
really logical. I know a lot was put into maemo. Hours, emotions,
education, money, etc., by Nokia (and other) employees, by companies who
staked their livelihoods on the technology, and by community members.
Don't get me wrong -- I really appreciate all of that and it saddens me
that maemo wasn't something that could be further developed and nurtured.
No, maemo is dead. Period. Something might arise from the ashes. A
community might evolve in order to absorbs the repos and keep the
software and some development available. But, this can never happen if
maemo is not allowed to die gracefully. Having the community and the
idea strung along by 50 passionate community members is not my idea of a
vibrant (or fun) open source community.
With all respect,
Tim
--
http://samoff.com
>>> Many of us are still around as users, even if we are no longer doing
>>> active development on Maemo. But we are grateful to those who are
>>> still doing development!
>> <snip>
>>
>> Hear hear!! 1+
> +1
This is exactly my issue with continuing the Maemo Community... While my
impetus always dwelt more in the philosophical, I was always also a
doer. (Thanks for putting it that way, Graham.) Sure, much of my
community-oriented communiqué was about how our community worked and
survived, but it was said with the idea that it would get others to be
doers as well.
This being said, most of the people who take part on this list are (or
were) doers within the community. But, having watched the community from
the outside for quite sometime now (the extent of my participation has
been in "liking" or "not liking" posts on the pmo feed), I have
witnessed the "we love you guys for continuing to do stuff, but we just
want you to do it for us" mentality all too much.
At the height of the maemo project, maemo.org had roughly 25,000
registered users. Of that, maybe 1% or 2% were the doers. I'd imagine,
at this point, the people who are actively doing number around ~50
people (not counting those who are still being paid to run the maemo.org
infrastructure). And, you can't even take http://maemo.org/profile/list/
seriously because I'm still in the top 15 after not having participated
in much for a very long time.
Having served three terms of Community Council, it was easy to see,
first-hand, the decline of participation within the community. I think
I, more than anyone, made a point to put Council and community
communication in the forefront, yet the response was always lackluster.
It was disheartening, but my love for the project and the community was
great enough to keep me going.
Now, we're faced with a handful of people who really desire to see maemo
continue. It's very commendable. But, it's also, imho, based largely in
nostalgia. If maemo were, in fact, really something that the community
wanted to succeed, we'd see many more doers and not so many "thank you
for doing for me" sentiments.
There might still be a lot of action on tmo. That's great. But, how many
of those people are asking for help as opposed to giving it? How many
are requesting applications rather than developing them? How many
actually know about this election or the Council in general? How many
are still wondering when the next maemo device will be released because
they don't even take time to read more than the smattering of "I need
another startup video" posts that interest them?
Yes, I'm being a little harsh. But, as someone who remembers when the
community _really_ was active, this just doesn't cut it.
In my eyes, "maemo is dead, long live maemo" is a fun idea, but it isn't
really logical. I know a lot was put into maemo. Hours, emotions,
education, money, etc., by Nokia (and other) employees, by companies who
staked their livelihoods on the technology, and by community members.
Don't get me wrong -- I really appreciate all of that and it saddens me
that maemo wasn't something that could be further developed and nurtured.
No, maemo is dead. Period. Something might arise from the ashes. A
community might evolve in order to absorbs the repos and keep the
software and some development available. But, this can never happen if
maemo is not allowed to die gracefully. Having the community and the
idea strung along by 50 passionate community members is not my idea of a
vibrant (or fun) open source community.
With all respect,
Tim
--
http://samoff.com
Re: Maemo Elections - Extended
Felipe Crochik
Hi Tim,
> No, maemo is dead. Period. Something might arise from the ashes. A
> community might evolve in order to absorbs the repos and keep the
> software and some development available. But, this can never happen if
> maemo is not allowed to die gracefully. Having the community and the
> idea strung along by 50 passionate community members is not my idea of a
> vibrant (or fun) open source community.
>
> With all respect,
> Tim
>
> I don't disagree... In fact, it has been my sentiment for quite a long
time, maybe starting with the meego announcement.
What it may have changed for me is that even with all the efforts to NOT
include Harmattan on maemo.org it feels to me that the users have decided
that maemo.org is the right place anyway. I was surprised to find out a
bunch of "announcements" for harmattan applications on tmo and discussions
around harmattan - more or like what I used to see around the n900. I
haven't announced any of my harmattan applications there because "the last"
I heard was that "we" didn't want harmattan on maemo.org.
For me the question is if maemo.org ends with the n900 or if maemo.org is
really "nokia linux devices", right now basically IF it includes or not
Harmattan.
Since Nokia/Meego fallout I hoped Nokia would promote Harmattan as maemo
and not meego but it didn't happen.
Like you, I don't think nostalgia is enough. I wouldn't loose sleep to say
that maemo.org is dead if it is not meaningful or if there is a "better
place" out there but... I have seem enough noise around harmattan that
could justify its existence IF we can invite it over with open arms.
The fact that we have many attempts of creating "n9 web sites" tells me
that we have a "need". Honestly, me and my n9/n950 feel homeless ...
meego.com just doesn't feel right... developer.nokia.com feels too much
like "just nokians"... qt is the closest but it is not for everybody (just
developers).... Maemo.org was (is?) the place where you would talk to
developers and with people that didn't have a clue about how to develop
software but "knew" about community, design or whatever - just interesting
people that you would like to talk to with something in common !
On the applications front is no better... Soon we will need a catalog of
software catalogs... Extras with all its defects was the place that you
would go to find software for the n900. Ovi store was a distant second that
would host the non-open-source projects because they weren't welcome on
Extras.
Felipe
> No, maemo is dead. Period. Something might arise from the ashes. A
> community might evolve in order to absorbs the repos and keep the
> software and some development available. But, this can never happen if
> maemo is not allowed to die gracefully. Having the community and the
> idea strung along by 50 passionate community members is not my idea of a
> vibrant (or fun) open source community.
>
> With all respect,
> Tim
>
> I don't disagree... In fact, it has been my sentiment for quite a long
time, maybe starting with the meego announcement.
What it may have changed for me is that even with all the efforts to NOT
include Harmattan on maemo.org it feels to me that the users have decided
that maemo.org is the right place anyway. I was surprised to find out a
bunch of "announcements" for harmattan applications on tmo and discussions
around harmattan - more or like what I used to see around the n900. I
haven't announced any of my harmattan applications there because "the last"
I heard was that "we" didn't want harmattan on maemo.org.
For me the question is if maemo.org ends with the n900 or if maemo.org is
really "nokia linux devices", right now basically IF it includes or not
Harmattan.
Since Nokia/Meego fallout I hoped Nokia would promote Harmattan as maemo
and not meego but it didn't happen.
Like you, I don't think nostalgia is enough. I wouldn't loose sleep to say
that maemo.org is dead if it is not meaningful or if there is a "better
place" out there but... I have seem enough noise around harmattan that
could justify its existence IF we can invite it over with open arms.
The fact that we have many attempts of creating "n9 web sites" tells me
that we have a "need". Honestly, me and my n9/n950 feel homeless ...
meego.com just doesn't feel right... developer.nokia.com feels too much
like "just nokians"... qt is the closest but it is not for everybody (just
developers).... Maemo.org was (is?) the place where you would talk to
developers and with people that didn't have a clue about how to develop
software but "knew" about community, design or whatever - just interesting
people that you would like to talk to with something in common !
On the applications front is no better... Soon we will need a catalog of
software catalogs... Extras with all its defects was the place that you
would go to find software for the n900. Ovi store was a distant second that
would host the non-open-source projects because they weren't welcome on
Extras.
Felipe
Re: Maemo Elections - Extended
<quim.gil at nokia.com>
(Sorry for mobile top posting)
When Nokia was contributing to MeeGo we did our best contributing to the new community to be consolidated around it. Even after #feb11 we decided that in terms of.branding and intent it was better to keep things as initially planned in order to avoid additional damage to meego.com
Now meego.com has no promoter. If N9 users and developers want to call maemo.org home because it is useful and fun them, why not. As you say other attempts are struggling.
--
Quim
On 4/4/12 10:35 AM ext Felipe Crochik wrote:
Hi Tim,
No, maemo is dead. Period. Something might arise from the ashes. A
community might evolve in order to absorbs the repos and keep the
software and some development available. But, this can never happen if
maemo is not allowed to die gracefully. Having the community and the
idea strung along by 50 passionate community members is not my idea of a
vibrant (or fun) open source community.
With all respect,
Tim
I don't disagree... In fact, it has been my sentiment for quite a long time, maybe starting with the meego announcement.
What it may have changed for me is that even with all the efforts to NOT include Harmattan on maemo.org<http://maemo.org> it feels to me that the users have decided that maemo.org<http://maemo.org> is the right place anyway. I was surprised to find out a bunch of "announcements" for harmattan applications on tmo and discussions around harmattan - more or like what I used to see around the n900. I haven't announced any of my harmattan applications there because "the last" I heard was that "we" didn't want harmattan on maemo.org<http://maemo.org>.
For me the question is if maemo.org<http://maemo.org> ends with the n900 or if maemo.org<http://maemo.org> is really "nokia linux devices", right now basically IF it includes or not Harmattan.
Since Nokia/Meego fallout I hoped Nokia would promote Harmattan as maemo and not meego but it didn't happen.
Like you, I don't think nostalgia is enough. I wouldn't loose sleep to say that maemo.org<http://maemo.org> is dead if it is not meaningful or if there is a "better place" out there but... I have seem enough noise around harmattan that could justify its existence IF we can invite it over with open arms.
The fact that we have many attempts of creating "n9 web sites" tells me that we have a "need". Honestly, me and my n9/n950 feel homeless ... meego.com<http://meego.com> just doesn't feel right... developer.nokia.com<http://developer.nokia.com> feels too much like "just nokians"... qt is the closest but it is not for everybody (just developers).... Maemo.org was (is?) the place where you would talk to developers and with people that didn't have a clue about how to develop software but "knew" about community, design or whatever - just interesting people that you would like to talk to with something in common !
On the applications front is no better... Soon we will need a catalog of software catalogs... Extras with all its defects was the place that you would go to find software for the n900. Ovi store was a distant second that would host the non-open-source projects because they weren't welcome on Extras.
Felipe
When Nokia was contributing to MeeGo we did our best contributing to the new community to be consolidated around it. Even after #feb11 we decided that in terms of.branding and intent it was better to keep things as initially planned in order to avoid additional damage to meego.com
Now meego.com has no promoter. If N9 users and developers want to call maemo.org home because it is useful and fun them, why not. As you say other attempts are struggling.
--
Quim
On 4/4/12 10:35 AM ext Felipe Crochik wrote:
Hi Tim,
No, maemo is dead. Period. Something might arise from the ashes. A
community might evolve in order to absorbs the repos and keep the
software and some development available. But, this can never happen if
maemo is not allowed to die gracefully. Having the community and the
idea strung along by 50 passionate community members is not my idea of a
vibrant (or fun) open source community.
With all respect,
Tim
I don't disagree... In fact, it has been my sentiment for quite a long time, maybe starting with the meego announcement.
What it may have changed for me is that even with all the efforts to NOT include Harmattan on maemo.org<http://maemo.org> it feels to me that the users have decided that maemo.org<http://maemo.org> is the right place anyway. I was surprised to find out a bunch of "announcements" for harmattan applications on tmo and discussions around harmattan - more or like what I used to see around the n900. I haven't announced any of my harmattan applications there because "the last" I heard was that "we" didn't want harmattan on maemo.org<http://maemo.org>.
For me the question is if maemo.org<http://maemo.org> ends with the n900 or if maemo.org<http://maemo.org> is really "nokia linux devices", right now basically IF it includes or not Harmattan.
Since Nokia/Meego fallout I hoped Nokia would promote Harmattan as maemo and not meego but it didn't happen.
Like you, I don't think nostalgia is enough. I wouldn't loose sleep to say that maemo.org<http://maemo.org> is dead if it is not meaningful or if there is a "better place" out there but... I have seem enough noise around harmattan that could justify its existence IF we can invite it over with open arms.
The fact that we have many attempts of creating "n9 web sites" tells me that we have a "need". Honestly, me and my n9/n950 feel homeless ... meego.com<http://meego.com> just doesn't feel right... developer.nokia.com<http://developer.nokia.com> feels too much like "just nokians"... qt is the closest but it is not for everybody (just developers).... Maemo.org was (is?) the place where you would talk to developers and with people that didn't have a clue about how to develop software but "knew" about community, design or whatever - just interesting people that you would like to talk to with something in common !
On the applications front is no better... Soon we will need a catalog of software catalogs... Extras with all its defects was the place that you would go to find software for the n900. Ovi store was a distant second that would host the non-open-source projects because they weren't welcome on Extras.
Felipe
Re: Maemo Elections - Extended
Craig Woodward
For those that may have missed it, the questions posed by several people here have been compiled on a Wiki page at TMO, along with the candidate list and their replies. Andrew, your questions are presented on the wiki and I've replied in kind. If you (or anyone) would like to have a discussion about my replies, I would be happy to do so here or in the Council Elections thread on TMO.
If you haven't taken a moment to read through those (and perhaps formulate and ask a question) now would be a good time to do so. If you have lots of time, there's also a lively thread on the elections on TMO to read through. Both links follow:
http://wiki.maemo.org/Community_Council/Council_election_May_2012/Candidate_declarations
http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=83398
If you haven't taken a moment to read through those (and perhaps formulate and ask a question) now would be a good time to do so. If you have lots of time, there's also a lively thread on the elections on TMO to read through. Both links follow:
http://wiki.maemo.org/Community_Council/Council_election_May_2012/Candidate_declarations
http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=83398
Re: Maemo Elections - Extended
2012-04-29 22:32 UTC
On Tue, Apr 3, 2012 at 12:16 PM, Andrew Flegg <andrew@bleb.org> wrote:
> On 3 April 2012 16:25, Paul Sleggs <psleggs@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > I would like to nominate for the elections:
> >
> > SD69
>
> Good news - SD69 has already been nominated! He's not yet accepted, though:
>
>
I accept the nomination
Rob (SD69)
> On 3 April 2012 16:25, Paul Sleggs <psleggs@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > I would like to nominate for the elections:
> >
> > SD69
>
> Good news - SD69 has already been nominated! He's not yet accepted, though:
>
>
I accept the nomination
Rob (SD69)
Re: Maemo Elections - Extended
2012-04-30 10:19 UTC
Thank you Rob.
2012/4/30 robert bauer <nybauer@gmail.com>
>
>
> On Tue, Apr 3, 2012 at 12:16 PM, Andrew Flegg <andrew@bleb.org> wrote:
>
>> On 3 April 2012 16:25, Paul Sleggs <psleggs@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >
>> > I would like to nominate for the elections:
>> >
>> > SD69
>>
>> Good news - SD69 has already been nominated! He's not yet accepted,
>> though:
>>
>>
> I accept the nomination
>
> Rob (SD69)
>
>
>
--
Iván Gálvez Junquera
2012/4/30 robert bauer <nybauer@gmail.com>
>
>
> On Tue, Apr 3, 2012 at 12:16 PM, Andrew Flegg <andrew@bleb.org> wrote:
>
>> On 3 April 2012 16:25, Paul Sleggs <psleggs@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >
>> > I would like to nominate for the elections:
>> >
>> > SD69
>>
>> Good news - SD69 has already been nominated! He's not yet accepted,
>> though:
>>
>>
> I accept the nomination
>
> Rob (SD69)
>
>
>
--
Iván Gálvez Junquera
> I have never left! Have to say that for personal reasons haven't been as
> involved as before but I am still here!
Many of us are still around as users, even if we are no longer doing active
development on Maemo. But we are grateful to those who are still doing
development!
> Not sure if it makes any sense to try this now or if it is better to wait
> after the election but hopefully we can start to gather all "the community
> issues/desires/hopes and dreams" into a document so we can discuss have a
> public discussion with Quim and hopefully decide on some action items. I
> believe we need a community proposal.
I am still mostly of the same opinion as I was 6 months ago: the forum, wiki
and mailing lists are the most important community resource but are not really
under threat (even if the money went away tomorrow, volunteers would be found
to host those).
The repositories are harder: they are a very important resource and it would
be a great shame if they went away and people had to maintain their own
private repositories. However, they are relatively expensive (bandwidth,
space and the software necessary to make them work).
Given the current levels of development, I would favour getting rid of the
autobuilders and the testing and promotion process. Allow the few remaining
active developers to make their own builds and to decide for themselves when
to push their various releases into the various repositories.
If we assume that Nokia support will eventually go away, our efforts should be
focused on getting Nokia to (i) grant the community a perpetual licence to
distrubute the Nokia proprietary material necessary to continue development (I
am thinking mainly of software, SDK, etc but the task would have to include
drawing up the inventory), and (ii) give us the web server code used to
maintain the repositories (in the reduced form I describe above) so we can
keep it running.
If others agree with this approach then we need a council of do-ers, who will
take on organising getting these tasks done and working with Quim. Not
philosophers or ideas people who do not have time to put the necessary effort
in. That is why I am not standing!
Graham