the hell of Maemo repos

What the Hell is going on with Maemo repositories?

Today I've been trying to install kismet package, and after trying to
download it from eko.one.pl I found the following warning
message:<http://eko.one.pl/maemo/>
***********************************************************************************************
Eko1 repo was shut down, due to request of maemo.org's webmaster. (
https://wiki.maemo.org/Task:Reducing_number_of_external_repositories) Use
Extras from maemo repo.
***********************************************************************************************

But what the Hell... This package is not any more in Extras maemo
repository! so that it has just disappeared...

Come on, Quim... what good excuse are you going to tell us now...?

Is Nokia (or Maemo) trying to save our souls from the sin of using kismet?

Is it just a coincidence? (How many of them... nevertheless)

Salut,
Sebas.

PD: Sorry very much if you find this message unpolite, but I'm really fed up
with this kind of situations...

In their defense (shocking coming from me, I know...), it's exactly
this kind of nightmare they're trying to prevent. By making people use
the official repositories instead of putting things in their personal
servers all over the Internet, it will make things easier to find and
hopefully more reliable.

That's no consolation when there's a problem with the switch at the
worst possible moment for you, I know.

Mark

On Fri, Nov 21, 2008 at 11:19 AM, sebastian maemo
<sebastian.maemo@gmail.com> wrote:
> What the Hell is going on with Maemo repositories?
>
> Today I've been trying to install kismet package, and after trying to
> download it from eko.one.pl I found the following warning message:
> ***********************************************************************************************
> Eko1 repo was shut down, due to request of maemo.org's webmaster.
> (https://wiki.maemo.org/Task:Reducing_number_of_external_repositories) Use
> Extras from maemo repo.
> ***********************************************************************************************
>
> But what the Hell... This package is not any more in Extras maemo
> repository! so that it has just disappeared...
>
> Come on, Quim... what good excuse are you going to tell us now...?
>
> Is Nokia (or Maemo) trying to save our souls from the sin of using kismet?
>
> Is it just a coincidence? (How many of them... nevertheless)
>
> Salut,
> Sebas.
>
> PD: Sorry very much if you find this message unpolite, but I'm really fed up
> with this kind of situations...

Hi,

sebastian maemo wrote:
> Come on, Quim... what good excuse are you going to tell us now...?

First, there is no excuse for this personal attack.

> PD: Sorry very much if you find this message unpolite, but I'm really
> fed up with this kind of situations...

Apologising after being impolite doesn't make it better.

> Eko1 repo was shut down, due to request of maemo.org's webmaster.
> (https://wiki.maemo.org/Task:Reducing_number_of_external_repositories)
> Use Extras from maemo repo.

maemo.org's webmaster is Niels, not Quim. If you had read that wiki
page, you would see that this task is owned by Niels.

This looks very much like a misunderstanding to me. Perhaps you need to
activate devel-extras to get kismet? Or perhaps the repository owner
misunderstood a query from Niels? Perhaps kismet is available in extras
and you're doing something wrong? Or perhaps it's in the process of
being included, and just hasn't cleared all the steps yet?

In any case, there are any number of reasonable innocent honest
explanations I would investigate before jumping to the conspiracy theory
of Quim (ie Nokia) trying to shut down "unwelcome" applications. I don't
know which one is true. Perhaps if you'd asked differently, someone
would have taken pleasure in clearing it up.

Dave.

--
maemo.org docsmaster
Email: dneary@maemo.org
Jabber: bolsh@jabber.org

2008/11/21 Mark <wolfmane@gmail.com>

> In their defense (shocking coming from me, I know...), it's exactly
> this kind of nightmare they're trying to prevent. By making people use
> the official repositories instead of putting things in their personal
> servers all over the Internet, it will make things easier to find and
> hopefully more reliable.


I know Mark... I fully agree with the discipline of unifying repos in Maemo
main server... but if that means that they're going to judge which software
is "convenient" or not... then it's not so interesting...

In Debian repos you can find everything: free, non-free, restricted or
anything. Without any kind of censorship... I stopped using SuSE because of
this censorship...

Maemo is based on Debian not on SuSE... I hope...

Nevertheless I'm frustrated because of the community not for my individual
case...

In fact, I've already downloaded kismet from a private repo, and now that I
do NOT trust Maemo anymore... I'm storing my own repo site, collecting the
deb packages for my 770 and anyone who cares about freedom of use and
continued service (what kind of service are we receiving from Nokia as Maemo
users?... we're supposed to be customers!)

Salut,
Sebas.

On Fri, Nov 21, 2008 at 11:54 AM, sebastian maemo
<sebastian.maemo@gmail.com> wrote:
> 2008/11/21 Mark <wolfmane@gmail.com>
>>
>> In their defense (shocking coming from me, I know...), it's exactly
>> this kind of nightmare they're trying to prevent. By making people use
>> the official repositories instead of putting things in their personal
>> servers all over the Internet, it will make things easier to find and
>> hopefully more reliable.
>
> I know Mark... I fully agree with the discipline of unifying repos in Maemo
> main server... but if that means that they're going to judge which software
> is "convenient" or not... then it's not so interesting...
>
> In Debian repos you can find everything: free, non-free, restricted or
> anything. Without any kind of censorship... I stopped using SuSE because of
> this censorship...
>
> Maemo is based on Debian not on SuSE... I hope...
>
> Nevertheless I'm frustrated because of the community not for my individual
> case...
>
> In fact, I've already downloaded kismet from a private repo, and now that I
> do NOT trust Maemo anymore... I'm storing my own repo site, collecting the
> deb packages for my 770 and anyone who cares about freedom of use and
> continued service (what kind of service are we receiving from Nokia as Maemo
> users?... we're supposed to be customers!)
>
> Salut,
> Sebas.
>

I get what you're saying, but remember that Nokia is in this for the
money, not for others' benefit or because it's the right thing to do.
That means "planned obsolescence" is in effect, as well as control (in
other words, *not* true FOSS) and other things...

Mark

2008/11/21 Dave Neary <dneary@maemo.org>

>
> First, there is no excuse for this personal attack.


Personal attack?... Excuse me, Dave, but personal attack is what you are
doing to me! So be careful with what you say, please.

I'm just an unsatisfied customer, and Quim is Marketing Manager at Nokia.
Besides he participates in maemo-users list, so that I've all the necessary
rights to "attack" him, not personally but as a Nokia Manager. Sorry for
being so direct but it was your fault not mine...

Apologising after being impolite doesn't make it better.


So I shouldn't accept your apologies...


> maemo.org's webmaster is Niels, not Quim. If you had read that wiki
> page, you would see that this task is owned by Niels.


I don't care about that. I just bought my Nokia 770 and want to use it
without *unnecessary* headaches...

This looks very much like a misunderstanding to me. Perhaps you need to
> activate devel-extras to get kismet? Or perhaps the repository owner
> misunderstood a query from Niels? Perhaps kismet is available in extras
> and you're doing something wrong? Or perhaps it's in the process of
> being included, and just hasn't cleared all the steps yet?


It looks like you're just guessing. I think that before participating in a
thread you should first inform yourself pretty well and then try to help if
possible... If you don't know what's really happening then stop guessing or
at least stop critizing my post for that reason...

In any case, there are any number of reasonable innocent honest
> explanations I would investigate before jumping to the conspiracy theory
> of Quim (ie Nokia) trying to shut down "unwelcome" applications.


Conspiracy is there. The fact that you don't believe in it doesn't make it
less true...

I don't know which one is true.


So that I don't understand the purpose of your mail, but a personal attack
to an unsatisfied customer...

Perhaps if you'd asked differently, someone
> would have taken pleasure in clearing it up.


Sorry Dave... I think you missed the point... I'm not asking at all... I'm
just complaining (even if you don't like it)...

Salut,
Sebas.

2008/11/21 Mark <wolfmane@gmail.com>

> I get what you're saying, but remember that Nokia is in this for the
> money, not for others' benefit or because it's the right thing to do.
> That means "planned obsolescence" is in effect, as well as control (in
> other words, *not* true FOSS) and other things...
>

I'm in the business too, so that I try to understand. But when you've been
struggling to get things working in your Nokia Tablet... the least thing you
expect is that all your system is in danger because a fatal move of some
employee at Nokia. And if that happens I'm going to complain... as they
would complain if they couldn't find spare pieces for their old Opel
Kadett... Sorry but I still can buy razor blades for my even older Gillette
Contour Plus!!!

Salut,
Sebas.

On Fri, Nov 21, 2008 at 11:53 AM, Dave Neary <dneary@maemo.org> wrote:
> Hi,
>
> sebastian maemo wrote:
>> Come on, Quim... what good excuse are you going to tell us now...?
>
> First, there is no excuse for this personal attack.
>

...so two wrongs make a right?...

>> PD: Sorry very much if you find this message unpolite, but I'm really
>> fed up with this kind of situations...
>
> Apologising after being impolite doesn't make it better.
>

...So the truth hurts. Sometimes things need to be said, even if one
knows they aren't going to be well-received. It is in fact valid to
express it when one has been inconvenienced or ignored, and
recognizing that someone may be annoyed by that is in fact better than
a pure rant that attacks the messenger rather than the message.

>> Eko1 repo was shut down, due to request of maemo.org's webmaster.
>> (https://wiki.maemo.org/Task:Reducing_number_of_external_repositories)
>> Use Extras from maemo repo.
>
> maemo.org's webmaster is Niels, not Quim. If you had read that wiki
> page, you would see that this task is owned by Niels.
>

...if, and "you should" and "you would"... Perhaps you need to
recognize that not everyone is created equal, and not everyone knows
the entire contents of the wiki and has committed it to memory or has
the time to search it for every bit of minutiae?

> This looks very much like a misunderstanding to me. Perhaps you need to
> activate devel-extras to get kismet? Or perhaps the repository owner
> misunderstood a query from Niels? Perhaps kismet is available in extras
> and you're doing something wrong? Or perhaps it's in the process of
> being included, and just hasn't cleared all the steps yet?
>

Perhaps (and from the initial post it's quite obviously the case) he
has already done more work tracking down the possibilities than you
are willing to give him credit for? Perhaps apps could be included in
the official repository and tested _before_ nuking the original
source? Perhaps you could quit blaming the victims and start dealing
with the real problems?

> In any case, there are any number of reasonable innocent honest
> explanations I would investigate before jumping to

You need to take a pound or two of your own cure. You're as guilty as
anyone of "jumping to conclusions" and making personal attacks. (See
above...)

> the conspiracy theory
> of Quim (ie Nokia) trying to shut down "unwelcome" applications. I don't
> know which one is true. Perhaps if you'd asked differently, someone
> would have taken pleasure in clearing it up.
>

Yeah, it's okay to shoot the messenger if you don't like the tone or
content of the message. That makes it easier to ignore the facts. NOT!

> Dave.
>
> --
> maemo.org docsmaster
> Email: dneary@maemo.org
> Jabber: bolsh@jabber.org

The bottom line is that there are some serious problems in the way
that Nokia has and continues to approach the ITs and support for them.
Until they not only acknowledge that but address it realistically,
they are going to have to deal with the occasional "attack". Get used
to it! If we customers are going to have to live with the everpresent
disappointment of devices that aren't coming anywhere near to living
up to their hype or potential, then you're going to have to get used
to the occasional complaint or rant. That's how it works.

Mark

Am Freitag, den 21.11.2008, 20:10 +0100 schrieb sebastian maemo:
> 2008/11/21 Dave Neary <dneary@maemo.org>

> First, there is no excuse for this personal attack.
>
> Personal attack?... Excuse me, Dave, but personal attack is what you
> are doing to me! So be careful with what you say, please.

Your sentence "Come on, Quim... what good excuse are you going to tell
us now...?" looks attacking to me too. You imply that your issue is
Quim's or Nokia's responsibility, while it's clearly not.

Actually reading the "shut down, due to request of maemo.org's
webmaster" sentence you have posted and comparing the last part to the
string "Marketing Manager" can avoid such misunderstandings.

andre

--
Andre Klapper (maemo.org bugmaster)

On Fri, Nov 21, 2008 at 12:34 PM, Andre Klapper <aklapper@openismus.com> wrote:
> Am Freitag, den 21.11.2008, 20:10 +0100 schrieb sebastian maemo:
>> 2008/11/21 Dave Neary <dneary@maemo.org>
>
>> First, there is no excuse for this personal attack.
>>
>> Personal attack?... Excuse me, Dave, but personal attack is what you
>> are doing to me! So be careful with what you say, please.
>
> Your sentence "Come on, Quim... what good excuse are you going to tell
> us now...?" looks attacking to me too.

This is because of the rather clear history of excuses being made in
response to issues rather than the issues being actually dealt with
realistically. Like the ones you're making now...

> You imply that your issue is
> Quim's or Nokia's responsibility, while it's clearly not.
>

Huh? The last time I checked, my N800 had the name Nokia plastered all
over it. Maybe I should grind it off? Quim seems to be the voice of
Nokia on this list, ergo addressing an issue to him. It's obvious that
Nokia wants to divorce itself from any responsibility for these
devices by sloughing off all support to the "maemo community", but
they're living in a dream world if they think that's even possible,
much less advisable.

> Actually reading the "shut down, due to request of maemo.org's
> webmaster" sentence you have posted and comparing the last part to the
> string "Marketing Manager" can avoid such misunderstandings.
>
> andre
>
> --
> Andre Klapper (maemo.org bugmaster)
>

If it were worded "transferred to xxxxxxx repository to maintain
consistency and reduce the number of external repositories" (note the
use of past tense, meaning everything is already in place), then you
might have had a basis for argument. As it is, the process is
obviously far too disorganized and is begging for such problems -- and
complaints.

Mark