Monthly Sprint Proposal

Hi,

Jeremiah: I understand where you are coming from, but...

> ext Jeremiah Foster wrote:
> This is exactly what is happening now. When Alan writes
> "I'm still unclear about the council's role in "policing" the paid
> maemo.org team.

I hope I'm not assuming too much by saying that Alan just asking a
question here. As a new member of a Council who is only just beginning
its second term of existence, he is honestly unclear about some of the
processes... Which, as a Council member, I am too. These are the things
that we've been elected to work out, as Alan is attempting to do -- in
an open, community-oriented discussion.

> The current council is ignoring this and looking for ways to "police"
> and "boss" before the roles are defined.

I disagree. In fact, I've asked you (twice now) to send a statement of
your own roles/responsibilities to the community for review and
discussion. I still haven't seen it.

I'm not saying that I think you are doing poorly -- from what I've seen,
I think you are doing a great job -- but what Alan is doing is what I
have asked you to do. (Two way street?)

--
http://tim.samoff.com

On Apr 8, 2009, at 15:10, Tim wrote:

> I disagree. In fact, I've asked you (twice now) to send a statement of
> your own roles/responsibilities to the community for review and
> discussion. I still haven't seen it.

I initiated that discussion with you Tim. See attachment.
I
i

On Apr 8, 2009, at 15:10, Tim wrote:
>
> I disagree. In fact, I've asked you (twice now) to send a statement of
> your own roles/responsibilities to the community for review and
> discussion. I still haven't seen it.
>
> I'm not saying that I think you are doing poorly -- from what I've
> seen,
> I think you are doing a great job -- but what Alan is doing is what I
> have asked you to do. (Two way street?)

Umm, I initiated that discussion with you, not the other way around,
remember? I have pasted the email in case you have forgotten.

---

March 2nd, 2009

Hi Tim,

Just wanted to drop you a quick not about the focus for the debmaster.

I realize this discussion might be better had on community forums, I
wanted to start it here in case all aspects of this discussion was not
ready for the community lists at the moment.

I see three technical areas, generally speaking, for the debmaster.

1. Creating packages for maemo
2. Maintaing tools for packaging and policy for packaging
3. Helping, along with the webmaster, to create healthy ecosystem of
repositories.

Obviously the debmaster ought to be hanging out in the community,
easily accessible to help with packaging and other related tasks, but
from that list above, what does the council feel should be a priority?

Recently, Niels suggested we use a tool called dak for the
repositories. This will take a lot of time, and I don't want the
community to feel I am not available. I am dividing my time to allow
for as much community contact as possible - in fact I do maemo stuff
on the weekends because I know developers are often active then. But I
would really like a clearer picture of where the pain is, at least
from the council's point of view. I have got a fairly clear picture
from the community.

Thanks,

Jeremiah

Hi,

For the most part, it feels like you're tilting at windmills here
Jeremiah, I don't see the same issues you seem to. It looks like we're
getting caught up in the tone & style of what was said rather than (more
important) the intent & content.

That said, I do want to touch on one thing you mention.

Jeremiah Foster wrote:
> This is clear in no uncertain terms, and is as it should be. But this
> also describes a two way street - if the council takes on the
> responsibility of hiring a person, they have the obligation to fulfill
> their end of the bargain and not change terms and conditions with a
> new council. This is exactly what is happening now. When Alan writes
> "I'm still unclear about the council's role in "policing" the paid
> maemo.org team. To what extent are we the team's "bosses"?" he is
> pointing to the lack of a clearly defined relationship between the
> employer and employee. That relationship must be formalized before
> there is hue and cry about "performance concerns, etc..."
> "staying on task".
>
> This ought to be obvious to all concerned - before you can hold
> someone accountable, you need to define their responsibilities.

Agreed. I for one would like a little more direction on what I should be
spending time on - I've mostly been setting my own agenda & working on
what I felt was needed & not getting done, like the elections, and
offering to help where I know I have the capacity, like the organisation
of the Summit, but I would really like to have a clearer idea of
people's expectations of me.

I don't want to be tied down to a job description but I do want to make
sure that I'm working on tasks that my bosses feel are important.

> The current council is ignoring this and looking for ways to "police"
> and "boss" before the roles are defined.

Here, though, I disagree with you. Part of being the boss is defining a
person's role with them. When you came on board, the council spent a lot
of time defining their expectations from a debmaster, so you have, at
least, that to work from.

I do think it's asking a lot of a small volunteer council to supervise
the work of four "employees" (for want of a better word), which is why
it's so important that we be completely open about what we do.

I'll readily admit that visiting the wiki every day has not come
naturally to me. I'm more comfortable participating actively in mailing
lists, being available on IRC, and blogging occasionally on major
things. I'd like to think that I've been sufficiently transparent for
people subscribed to the mailing lists to know what I'm up to.

I also think that it's important for all the council members to be
comfortable with their role, and setting (realistic) expectations for
maemo.org staffers. If you feel that you need a job description to give
you that framework, then so be it. Personally I prefer regular
suggestions, confirmations or corrections from the council, followed by
an attitude of JFDI until someone tells you you're doing something wrong.


I knnow I'm not in the best position to speak to this, having missed the
sprint meeting, but if qole feels the need to censure one or more of us
(did I come between the cross-hairs?) then maybe there is a problem that
needs fixing? So let's concentrate on the issue, rather than the way it
was expressed.

Cheers,
Dave.

--
maemo.org docsmaster
Email: dneary@maemo.org
Jabber: bolsh@jabber.org

On Apr 8, 2009, at 6:08 AM, Jeremiah Foster wrote:

> This is clear in no uncertain terms, and is as it should be. But this
> also describes a two way street - if the council takes on the
> responsibility of hiring a person, they have the obligation to fulfill
> their end of the bargain and not change terms and conditions with a
> new council. This is exactly what is happening now. When Alan writes
> "I'm still unclear about the council's role in "policing" the paid
> maemo.org team. To what extent are we the team's "bosses"?" he is
> pointing to the lack of a clearly defined relationship between the
> employer and employee. That relationship must be formalized before
> there is hue and cry about "performance concerns, etc..."
> "staying on task".
>
> This ought to be obvious to all concerned - before you can hold
> someone accountable, you need to define their responsibilities.

. . . and I think we did when we hired you, no? You outlined it pretty
well in another email:

> 1. Creating packages for maemo
> 2. Maintaing tools for packaging and policy for packaging
> 3. Helping, along with the webmaster, to create healthy ecosystem of
> repositories.


although I think that assisting developers with packaging needs to be
near the top of that list.

> The current council is ignoring this and looking for ways to "police"
> and "boss" before the roles are defined.

Well, now I know what it's like to work for Maemo SW, anyway. . . .

What _I'm_ seeing here is a strong reaction to the language usage in a
__question__. Questions aren't statements of intent, nor should they
receive strong reactions as if they were. If every question had such a
big reaction, people would stop asking questions outright and then
where would we be? :)

> This is an abrogation of the
> agreement with the previous council, even if that agreement was
> implicit and poorly defined. It is also an implicit criticism of the
> paid staff and of the previous council, for some reason Alan feels
> that the staff need to "stay on task" and need "policing". This is
> more than poor language choice, it points to the desire for hierarchy
> in what is traditionally a flat organizational structure.
>
>>> Turning to the council for a judgement of people's performance
>>> leaves
>>> lots of room for personal opinions and unprofessional appraisals,
>>> this
>>> will almost certainly be an area of contention that will require
>>> delicate handling.
>>
>> Only if you think the council is opinionated and unprofessional.
>
> In some instances the council has been unprofessional, so yes, I do
> think that.

If you have a specific issue, I'd like to hear it. This is the same
sort of thing that spawned this discussion.

>> I don't think the community (including Nokia) forgets that the
>> maemo.org
>> team is made of people (on the contrary, you are getting much more
>> personal trust, understanding and appraisal an average employee would
>> get in an average corporate job).
>
> To say I get "much more" of those things from the community and Nokia
> is not factually correct, especially after statements like this;
> "<qole> I agree that the paid people should work for the community. So
> that means that the Council is the "boss" of the paid team, as elected
> representatives of the community. I'm just looking for a word that
> conveys the "buck stops here" role, when there are performance
> concerns, etc..."

Notice he said the _average_ employee. Presenting a specific case to
contradict an average is not factually accurate.

> Surely you agree that is a direct questioning of the performance of
> the paid staff?

I don't. What I see is qole trying to figure out what his role really
is, requesting that people involved in maemo.org make an effort to be
clear and open in their reporting, and some proposals for how to make
that easier for everybody.

--
Ryan Abel
Maemo Community Council member

Again, you're right that you initiated the conversation, but this was my
response:

---
I don't know if this helps at all, but I'll assume that you understand
what I'm getting at. I'll bet Maemodom would appreciate you outlining
some sort of loose work structure and sending it to the community List.
If you do, though, be prepared for argument, but also be prepared to
either ignore or challenge what people say... I, as part of the Council,
trust you to make these decisions, so (at least) I will back you up.
Hopefully, the rest of 'em will to. If there are larger issues that
arise, we can always have an impromtu IRC meeting to sort things out.
---

That being said (and private conversations out in the public), I hope
this remains public.

Paraphrasing from another email to Jeremiah: No one trying to garner
lordship over anyone. There is just confusion as to how the Council is
supposed to work -- with good right.

Tim



Jeremiah Foster wrote:
> On Apr 8, 2009, at 15:10, Tim wrote:
>> I disagree. In fact, I've asked you (twice now) to send a statement of
>> your own roles/responsibilities to the community for review and
>> discussion. I still haven't seen it.
>>
>> I'm not saying that I think you are doing poorly -- from what I've
>> seen,
>> I think you are doing a great job -- but what Alan is doing is what I
>> have asked you to do. (Two way street?)
>
> Umm, I initiated that discussion with you, not the other way around,
> remember? I have pasted the email in case you have forgotten.
>
> ---
>
> March 2nd, 2009
>
> Hi Tim,
>
> Just wanted to drop you a quick not about the focus for the debmaster.
>
> I realize this discussion might be better had on community forums, I
> wanted to start it here in case all aspects of this discussion was not
> ready for the community lists at the moment.
>
> I see three technical areas, generally speaking, for the debmaster.
>
> 1. Creating packages for maemo
> 2. Maintaing tools for packaging and policy for packaging
> 3. Helping, along with the webmaster, to create healthy ecosystem of
> repositories.
>
> Obviously the debmaster ought to be hanging out in the community,
> easily accessible to help with packaging and other related tasks, but
> from that list above, what does the council feel should be a priority?
>
> Recently, Niels suggested we use a tool called dak for the
> repositories. This will take a lot of time, and I don't want the
> community to feel I am not available. I am dividing my time to allow
> for as much community contact as possible - in fact I do maemo stuff
> on the weekends because I know developers are often active then. But I
> would really like a clearer picture of where the pain is, at least
> from the council's point of view. I have got a fairly clear picture
> from the community.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Jeremiah
>

--
http://tim.samoff.com

I just want to apologize for my poor wording. I do not intend to "police"
and "boss" anyone.

And nobody is in my "crosshairs".

But I have been extremely unclear as to what my role as a Councilor is, in
relation to the paid maemo.org team, the community, and Nokia. Where does
everyone sit here? As I've asked before, what are my responsibilities?

Quim has made it clear that there is definitely some expectation that the
Council, as representatives of the Community, has some responsibility to
assess the performance of the maemo.org team, especially since the final
hiring (and contract renewal) decision seems to rest at least partly on us.

I am taking my role as Councilor very seriously, but I need to know exactly
what that means before I can do a good job at it. I can't do a good job if I
don't really know what a "good job" looks like. Thanks to Jaffa's work on
the wiki page, that is getting clearer, and this thread is making things
clearer still. (I think Jaffa could probably update our page with some of
the things in this thread)

Jeremiah, I think you need to realize that the community and the Council
needs you to do a bit more reporting, with more detail and precision, than
perhaps is "usual", for the simple reason that your position really is
unprecedented. We mostly know what a webmaster is supposed to do. Webmasters
have been around for a few years, and there's lots of them out there.

But what does a debmaster do? Well, since there haven't been any debmasters
before (that I know of), we are relying on four things:
(1) our own expectations: what do we think you should do?
(2) your job description: what were you hired to do?
(3) your past activities: what have you been doing so far?
(4) your future goals: what are you (and the community) planning for you to
do in the future?

The problem I had at first, and I think this is the source of the
frustration you sensed in me, is that I was relying on (1) too much, if not
entirely; I had a set of preconceived ideas about what you were going to do,
and when I perceived that you didn't seem to be doing some of the things I
wanted you to do, I became somewhat disappointed. But I've since realized
that this was an unfair assessment, since, of all the things in my list, (1)
is the least useful measurement.

In fact, I would say that (1) is not only useless, but quite dangerous. It
should be eliminated as quickly as possible, to be replaced by the other
three things. So I've set about trying to get some of the other three things
into place. Items (3) and (4) are the subject of this thread, and it seems
that you and Tim are working on (2) right now, too.

I sincerely believe that getting good reporting, processes and documentation
into place here will benefit everyone, and reduce the chances of things
"getting ugly" in the future. I want lots of transparency, and I really want
good will.

I'm really sorry if I have caused any loss of good will here; that was not
my intent and it isn't useful in building community or developing a working
relationship.

As an addendum: Looking at the way people are quoting my hastily chosen
words, everyone seems to have access to the logs of the maemo-meeting
channel for that meeting. Where are they to be found? Can someone provide a
link?

On Wed, Apr 8, 2009 at 6:10 AM, Tim <tim@samoff.com> wrote:

> Hi,
>
> Jeremiah: I understand where you are coming from, but...
>
> > ext Jeremiah Foster wrote:
> > This is exactly what is happening now. When Alan writes
> > "I'm still unclear about the council's role in "policing" the paid
> > maemo.org team.
>
> I hope I'm not assuming too much by saying that Alan just asking a
> question here. As a new member of a Council who is only just beginning
> its second term of existence, he is honestly unclear about some of the
> processes... Which, as a Council member, I am too. These are the things
> that we've been elected to work out, as Alan is attempting to do -- in
> an open, community-oriented discussion.
>
> > The current council is ignoring this and looking for ways to "police"
> > and "boss" before the roles are defined.
>
> I disagree. In fact, I've asked you (twice now) to send a statement of
> your own roles/responsibilities to the community for review and
> discussion. I still haven't seen it.
>
> I'm not saying that I think you are doing poorly -- from what I've seen,
> I think you are doing a great job -- but what Alan is doing is what I
> have asked you to do. (Two way street?)
>
> --
> http://tim.samoff.com
>

http://maemo.org/maemo-meeting/



Qole wrote:
> I just want to apologize for my poor wording. I do not intend to
> "police" and "boss" anyone.
>
> And nobody is in my "crosshairs".
>
> But I have been extremely unclear as to what my role as a Councilor is,
> in relation to the paid maemo.org <http://maemo.org> team, the
> community, and Nokia. Where does everyone sit here? As I've asked
> before, what are my responsibilities?
>
> Quim has made it clear that there is definitely some expectation that
> the Council, as representatives of the Community, has some
> responsibility to assess the performance of the maemo.org
> <http://maemo.org> team, especially since the final hiring (and contract
> renewal) decision seems to rest at least partly on us.
>
> I am taking my role as Councilor very seriously, but I need to know
> exactly what that means before I can do a good job at it. I can't do a
> good job if I don't really know what a "good job" looks like. Thanks to
> Jaffa's work on the wiki page, that is getting clearer, and this thread
> is making things clearer still. (I think Jaffa could probably update our
> page with some of the things in this thread)
>
> Jeremiah, I think you need to realize that the community and the Council
> needs you to do a bit more reporting, with more detail and precision,
> than perhaps is "usual", for the simple reason that your position really
> is unprecedented. We mostly know what a webmaster is supposed to do.
> Webmasters have been around for a few years, and there's lots of them
> out there.
>
> But what does a debmaster do? Well, since there haven't been any
> debmasters before (that I know of), we are relying on four things:
> (1) our own expectations: what do we think you should do?
> (2) your job description: what were you hired to do?
> (3) your past activities: what have you been doing so far?
> (4) your future goals: what are you (and the community) planning for you
> to do in the future?
>
> The problem I had at first, and I think this is the source of the
> frustration you sensed in me, is that I was relying on (1) too much, if
> not entirely; I had a set of preconceived ideas about what you were
> going to do, and when I perceived that you didn't seem to be doing some
> of the things I wanted you to do, I became somewhat disappointed. But
> I've since realized that this was an unfair assessment, since, of all
> the things in my list, (1) is the least useful measurement.
>
> In fact, I would say that (1) is not only useless, but quite dangerous.
> It should be eliminated as quickly as possible, to be replaced by the
> other three things. So I've set about trying to get some of the other
> three things into place. Items (3) and (4) are the subject of this
> thread, and it seems that you and Tim are working on (2) right now, too.
>
> I sincerely believe that getting good reporting, processes and
> documentation into place here will benefit everyone, and reduce the
> chances of things "getting ugly" in the future. I want lots of
> transparency, and I really want good will.
>
> I'm really sorry if I have caused any loss of good will here; that was
> not my intent and it isn't useful in building community or developing a
> working relationship.
>
> As an addendum: Looking at the way people are quoting my hastily chosen
> words, everyone seems to have access to the logs of the maemo-meeting
> channel for that meeting. Where are they to be found? Can someone
> provide a link?
>
> On Wed, Apr 8, 2009 at 6:10 AM, Tim <tim@samoff.com
> <mailto:tim@samoff.com>> wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> Jeremiah: I understand where you are coming from, but...
>
> > ext Jeremiah Foster wrote:
> > This is exactly what is happening now. When Alan writes
> > "I'm still unclear about the council's role in "policing" the paid
> > maemo.org <http://maemo.org> team.
>
> I hope I'm not assuming too much by saying that Alan just asking a
> question here. As a new member of a Council who is only just beginning
> its second term of existence, he is honestly unclear about some of the
> processes... Which, as a Council member, I am too. These are the things
> that we've been elected to work out, as Alan is attempting to do -- in
> an open, community-oriented discussion.
>
> > The current council is ignoring this and looking for ways to "police"
> > and "boss" before the roles are defined.
>
> I disagree. In fact, I've asked you (twice now) to send a statement of
> your own roles/responsibilities to the community for review and
> discussion. I still haven't seen it.
>
> I'm not saying that I think you are doing poorly -- from what I've seen,
> I think you are doing a great job -- but what Alan is doing is what I
> have asked you to do. (Two way street?)
>
> --
> http://tim.samoff.com
> _______________________________________________
> maemo-community mailing list
> maemo-community@maemo.org <mailto:maemo-community@maemo.org>
> https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-community
>
>

--
http://tim.samoff.com

2009/4/9 Qole <qole.tablet@gmail.com>:
>
[snip good stuff]
>
> I am taking my role as Councilor very seriously, but I need to know
> exactly what that means before I can do a good job at it. I can't do a
> good job if I don't really know what a "good job" looks like. Thanks to
> Jaffa's work on the wiki page, that is getting clearer, and this thread
> is making things clearer still. (I think Jaffa could probably update our
> page with some of the things in this thread)

I think you could update it too - no reason it has to be me (and
I/someone else/you can always change it if we don't like it :-))

Let's hold off a bit, though, to see what the effect these discussions
have on our thinking about roles & responsibilities.

BTW, do we have a (wiki) page listing all the maemo.org employees
("paid contributors", sorry)? If so, along with a bit of a bio, it
could hold the role descriptions and responsibilities - with each of
you writing your own as a first draft. Thoughts?

Cheers,

Andrew

--
Andrew Flegg -- mailto:andrew@bleb.org | http://www.bleb.org/
Maemo Community Council chair

Hello,

Excellent email Qole.

On Apr 9, 2009, at 2:55, Qole wrote:

> I just want to apologize for my poor wording. I do not intend to
> "police" and "boss" anyone.

I apologize if I over-reacted.

<snip>
>
> I am taking my role as Councilor very seriously, but I need to know
> exactly what that means before I can do a good job at it. I can't do
> a good job if I don't really know what a "good job" looks like.
> Thanks to Jaffa's work on the wiki page, that is getting clearer,
> and this thread is making things clearer still. (I think Jaffa could
> probably update our page with some of the things in this thread)
>
> Jeremiah, I think you need to realize that the community and the
> Council needs you to do a bit more reporting, with more detail and
> precision, than perhaps is "usual", for the simple reason that your
> position really is unprecedented. We mostly know what a webmaster is
> supposed to do. Webmasters have been around for a few years, and
> there's lots of them out there.

Excellent point, and something that I did not consider. I will create
a report with more detail, perhaps on the wiki so people can add
"todo" items when they see I am missing something?

> But what does a debmaster do? Well, since there haven't been any
> debmasters before (that I know of), we are relying on four things:
> (1) our own expectations: what do we think you should do?

I would love the council to come forward with a fairly detailed list
of expectations, it makes it easier to fulfill them.
>
> (2) your job description: what were you hired to do?

We have this document: http://maemo.org/community/council/now_hiring-maemo_community_debmaster/
But that link appears dead unfortunately. I have saved all the
correspondence with the previous council regarding the interview
process and job. That material is most likely kind of sensitive, but I
can make it available if you think it would make a difference.

I think the job description should be created by the community, placed
on a wiki page, constantly updated, and then compare the debmaster's
actual work with the wiki page. Then the entirety of the process is
open.

> (3) your past activities: what have you been doing so far?

- currently removing old diablo packages from the repos to save space
- evaluate dak for repository management
- creating a build order to pass packages through the automated build
system created by Nokia
- hacking a little on the build scripts for fremantle, or maybe the
build setup scripts
- creating a Virtual Machine here locally that matches the garage.m.o
environment as close as possible so that packages can get built as
they would on garage and I don't bring garage to its knees
- set up a development environment on garage for lintian transition to
maemian, including contact with upstream and reading lots of lintian
code
- presenting maemo to the IT University here in Gothenburg
- worked on synergy for maemo, needs a blog and some further
instructions
- chatting informally in #maemo and other channels

There are things that take a lot of time for me that I do not include
in my reporting for maemo, like;

- maintain my upstream work (i.e. debian packages, being involved in
debian-perl and reading debian-devel when I can)
- conference work, presentations mostly. (i.e. I will present a talk
on packaging for debian at Go Open in Oslo)
- continue to keep my skills updated by reading and learning about
virtualization, perl 6, python, etc.

There are also things that would normally fall under the rubric "work"
but I do not bill Nokia for;

- New hardware configuration and purchase (If I worked in an office,
this would be done for me.)
- Development environment replication and mirroring. (Some of the work
has to moved off of Nokia owned servers)
- Broadband connection, telephone, office space, bookkeeping (yuck)

> (4) your future goals: what are you (and the community) planning for
> you to do in the future?

Excellent question - and something that we can use to align our goals
and see if the relationship is working and if we want to continue. I
wish I had thought of this.

My future goals are to continue to work with Free Software. Debian has
given me so much in my life it is hard to quantify. I fundamentally
believe in the community, so much so that I have turned down jobs
because I would have to sit and develop on Microsoft software. If you
think that is zealotry, then I am guilty. I have noticed in this
current downturn however a significant upswing in linux use and
commensurate interest from recruiters.

So a quick list of my future goals;

- Work in/with free software (i.e. GPL'd, etc.)
- Continue to be able to commit work bi-directionally, i.e. upstream
and downstream
- Stay involved in the communities I am involved in
- Develop my knowledge specifically of

* debian
* perl
* maemian (I am going to be involved in this project whether I work
for maemo or not. :) )
* linux server administration
* virtualization


> The problem I had at first, and I think this is the source of the
> frustration you sensed in me, is that I was relying on (1) too much,
> if not entirely; I had a set of preconceived ideas about what you
> were going to do, and when I perceived that you didn't seem to be
> doing some of the things I wanted you to do, I became somewhat
> disappointed. But I've since realized that this was an unfair
> assessment, since, of all the things in my list, (1) is the least
> useful measurement.
>
> In fact, I would say that (1) is not only useless, but quite
> dangerous. It should be eliminated as quickly as possible, to be
> replaced by the other three things. So I've set about trying to get
> some of the other three things into place. Items (3) and (4) are the
> subject of this thread, and it seems that you and Tim are working on
> (2) right now, too.
>
> I sincerely believe that getting good reporting, processes and
> documentation into place here will benefit everyone, and reduce the
> chances of things "getting ugly" in the future. I want lots of
> transparency, and I really want good will.

Excellent points, I totally agree.
>
> I'm really sorry if I have caused any loss of good will here; that
> was not my intent and it isn't useful in building community or
> developing a working relationship.

Thank you very much for your open, and honest email Qole. Addressing
these issues head-on in a frank manner is valuable to the community I
feel, it will smooth the path for other council members and paid maemo
staff.

Let's keep this dialog going so that we ensure the debmaster focuses
on the needs of the community and that the council has a direct line
to the paid staff. I work alone, often in isolation aside from the
screen chatter around me, so having the constructive feedback from the
council is invaluable.

>
> As an addendum: Looking at the way people are quoting my hastily
> chosen words, everyone seems to have access to the logs of the maemo-
> meeting channel for that meeting. Where are they to be found? Can
> someone provide a link?

http://bsd.tspre.org/~stskeeps/log.meeting

Thanks Stskeeps!

>
> On Wed, Apr 8, 2009 at 6:10 AM, Tim <tim@samoff.com> wrote:
> Hi,
>
> Jeremiah: I understand where you are coming from, but...
>
> > ext Jeremiah Foster wrote:
> > This is exactly what is happening now. When Alan writes
> > "I'm still unclear about the council's role in "policing" the paid
> > maemo.org team.
>
> I hope I'm not assuming too much by saying that Alan just asking a
> question here. As a new member of a Council who is only just beginning
> its second term of existence, he is honestly unclear about some of the
> processes... Which, as a Council member, I am too. These are the
> things
> that we've been elected to work out, as Alan is attempting to do -- in
> an open, community-oriented discussion.
>
> > The current council is ignoring this and looking for ways to
> "police"
> > and "boss" before the roles are defined.
>
> I disagree. In fact, I've asked you (twice now) to send a statement of
> your own roles/responsibilities to the community for review and
> discussion. I still haven't seen it.
>
> I'm not saying that I think you are doing poorly -- from what I've
> seen,
> I think you are doing a great job -- but what Alan is doing is what I
> have asked you to do. (Two way street?)
>
> --
> http://tim.samoff.com
>