Harmattan & Maemo Community

On Fri, May 6, 2011 at 10:15, Cosimo Kroll <zehjotkah@googlemail.com> wrote:
> Just wait a little bit... ;)

I'm not sure this teasing is helpful. If you know something (like
Ville inevitably does), you should either helpfully hint around the
limits of what you can discuss; or be quiet about it.

As Ville asks, what *kind* of things could be revealed as part of a
Nokia device announcement which would affect whether meego.com,
maemo.org, somewhere else or a mess between them is the place to
discuss a Harmattan platform?

Cheers,

Andrew

--
Andrew Flegg -- mailto:andrew@bleb.org  |  http://www.bleb.org/

Andrew, to stress more what you outline here - the mess is so deep I'm
worried Harmattan would not be accepted in the community until its
next version, e.g. the proper fully compliant MeeGo with RPM packaging
and MeeGo UX components. This would be the least problematic case
creating less fragmentation than if it was to be highly adopted by the
community....


IMHO/ 2c's.



-Sivan

On Fri, May 6, 2011 at 12:21 PM, Andrew Flegg <andrew@bleb.org> wrote:
> On Fri, May 6, 2011 at 07:22, Ville M. Vainio <vivainio@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Situation check:
>>
>> So, what's the role of maemo community communication channels (these
>> mailing lists, talk.maemo.org) and Harmattan? Will maemo community
>> embrace Harmattan as "natural continuation" after maemo5? Or should
>> these channels be relegated to maemo5 and older alone, moving
>> Harmattan discussion elsewhere?
>
> Facts:
>
>  * Harmattan will be using deb packaging, rather than RPM (AFAWK)
>  * meego.com has explicitly ruled out being the place for
>    manufacturer-specific end-/power-user discussion.
>
> Unknowns:
>
>  * Will Nokia be able to market the device as "MeeGo", as the
>    compliance exemption has yet to be granted.
>
> Questions:
>
>  * Where will people be getting their software? Will COBS be
>    producing Harmattan debs and, if so, make them available
>    through the meego.com equivalent of maemo.org/downloads?
>
> In my opinion, the whole thing's a mess. Developers asking questions
> about Qt will be answered on meego-*; but asking about Qt Quick
> Components might be rejected as it's "not part of MeeGo" (with MeeGo
> UX Components being preferred); developers probably won't be welcome
> to discuss the intricacies of deb packaging for Harmattan, but will be
> uploading source tarballs for Debian packaging to COBS?
>
> Cheers,
>
> Andrew
>
> --
> Andrew Flegg -- mailto:andrew@bleb.org  |  http://www.bleb.org/
>

On 06/05/11 10:21, Andrew Flegg wrote:
> In my opinion, the whole thing's a mess.

Well, that's a given. But at least that has been recognised and
discussed to some extent. It won't all be fixable, but the damage can be
mitigated.

> Developers asking questions about Qt will be answered on meego-*;
> but asking about Qt Quick Components might be rejected as it's
> "not part of MeeGo" (with MeeGo UX Components being preferred);

I really don't believe this can be the case, it is in both MeeGo's and
Qt's interests to align themselves towards compatibility, and weak
indications are that this is sort of happening. Perhaps some pointed
questions need to be asked about that, though. Any volunteers want to
start asking questions about API differences and why they exist? :)

> developers probably won't be welcome to discuss the intricacies of
> deb packaging for Harmattan, but will be uploading source tarballs
> for Debian packaging to COBS?

I may be wrong, but wasn't there a proposal to set up an OBS for
maemo.org at some point?

--
Robin Burchell
http://rburchell.com

On Friday 06 May 2011 07:59:44 Ville M. Vainio wrote:
> On Fri, May 6, 2011 at 9:55 AM, Cosimo Kroll <zehjotkah@googlemail.com>
wrote:
> > But before deciding on that, we should wait for Nokias MeeGo/Harmattan
> > devices, which will be announced soon.
>
> Is there something in particular that needs to be known about the
> platform that would influence the decision?

I think it is more that the answer will depend on what the community wants,
and the community will not have an opinion until they have some experience. I
don't think anyone thinks there will be a separate place for Harmattan but it
is not yet clear whether MeeGo or Maemo are the most natural homes.

For example, there appears to be an issue about whether Harmattan will
actually use the MeeGo name or not (and, if so, whether it will be hidden in
small print somewhere or trumpeted as a feature). There has been some
discussion about it, but I have not seen any recent definitive statement, nor
do I expect one until the device ships.

My **personal** view is that Harmatten will end up here. Recent discussions
in MeeGo seem to have tended towards the view that the MeeGo lists and sites
are not the place for discussion of (let alone support of) specific devices
(whether for end users or developers). Not to mention some downright
hostility towards Harmattan (and, to some extent, Nokia).

In my mind the only way MeeGo would be a home for Harmattan might be if Nokia
make "MeeGo" a major end-user marketing feature of the device (so, for
example, app compatability becomes an interesting discussion point).
Personally I don't think that is likely but we won't know until it ships.

Graham

On Fri, May 6, 2011 at 12:24 PM, Andrew Flegg <andrew@bleb.org> wrote:
> On Fri, May 6, 2011 at 10:15, Cosimo Kroll <zehjotkah@googlemail.com> wrote:
>> Just wait a little bit... ;)
>
> I'm not sure this teasing is helpful. If you know something (like
> Ville inevitably does), you should either helpfully hint around the
> limits of what you can discuss; or be quiet about it.

Right. Let's avoid "leak and rumor hunger"[0] as so wonderfully
addressed in timeless's and mine's talk at the Dublin conference. This
just creates confusion and discontent. I think the best thing would be
to wait for a Nokia MeeGo developer edition release which should be
hopefully aligned with the compliance and would seamlessly integrate
into the current meego.com infrastructure.

I think the last thing I want to see is more users raging at the
closed components of Harmattan over the Maemo infrastructure,
effectively repeating the mistakes of the Maemo releases...

-Sivan

[0]: http://conference2010.meego.com/session/creating-first-choice-open-source-mobile-platform-learning-mistakes-past-and-beyond

Yes, that's my view, too.
The community will decide and they can only decide when there are devices to
buy.
We don't even know exactly what Harmattan is, there are only hints.
And yes, I agree, that's a deep mess.

Therefore I think it would be good to wait for the actual devices before
deciding where the Harmattan community goes on.


2011/5/6 Graham Cobb <g+770@cobb.uk.net>

> On Friday 06 May 2011 07:59:44 Ville M. Vainio wrote:
> > On Fri, May 6, 2011 at 9:55 AM, Cosimo Kroll <zehjotkah@googlemail.com>
> wrote:
> > > But before deciding on that, we should wait for Nokias MeeGo/Harmattan
> > > devices, which will be announced soon.
> >
> > Is there something in particular that needs to be known about the
> > platform that would influence the decision?
>
> I think it is more that the answer will depend on what the community wants,
> and the community will not have an opinion until they have some experience.
> I
> don't think anyone thinks there will be a separate place for Harmattan but
> it
> is not yet clear whether MeeGo or Maemo are the most natural homes.
>
> For example, there appears to be an issue about whether Harmattan will
> actually use the MeeGo name or not (and, if so, whether it will be hidden
> in
> small print somewhere or trumpeted as a feature). There has been some
> discussion about it, but I have not seen any recent definitive statement,
> nor
> do I expect one until the device ships.
>
> My **personal** view is that Harmatten will end up here. Recent
> discussions
> in MeeGo seem to have tended towards the view that the MeeGo lists and
> sites
> are not the place for discussion of (let alone support of) specific devices
> (whether for end users or developers). Not to mention some downright
> hostility towards Harmattan (and, to some extent, Nokia).
>
> In my mind the only way MeeGo would be a home for Harmattan might be if
> Nokia
> make "MeeGo" a major end-user marketing feature of the device (so, for
> example, app compatability becomes an interesting discussion point).
> Personally I don't think that is likely but we won't know until it ships.
>
> Graham
>

On Fri, May 6, 2011 at 12:29 PM, Graham Cobb <g+770@cobb.uk.net> wrote:

> In my mind the only way MeeGo would be a home for Harmattan might be if Nokia
> make "MeeGo" a major end-user marketing feature of the device (so, for
> example, app compatability becomes an interesting discussion point).
> Personally I don't think that is likely but we won't know until it ships.

Even if MeeGo was a major marketing feature, it has been communicated
that Harmattan specific stuff won't be welcome on meego mailing lists.
That is, it's not just a Nokia marketing decision.

Spiritually, I think Harmattan users are firmly in the "MeeGo
community" more than anything else, but those channels are just not
the most hospitable place for detailed device-specific technical
discussion. Forum Nokia (i.e. web forum) will be an endorsed
communication channel, but as it appears, forums are not very popular
among busy people.

On Fri, May 6, 2011 at 12:13 PM, a.grandi@gmail.com <a.grandi@gmail.com> wrote:

> Since it's pretty clear that (ok, you can also try to adfirm the
> contrary, but nobody will belive it now) Maemo/MeeGo/Harmattan is not
> anymore part of the Nokia business, what is the reason to keep all of
> this a secret???

It's the old big reveal thing.

Qt continues to have a huge role in Nokia's strategy, and Harmattan is
in the Qt family of products (among the more "aspirational" ones at
that).

> Do you want my hopinion/speculation? Well... I really think that
> Meego/Harmattan is, at the moment, better and better than WP7 and
> Microsoft really don't like this.

Remember how N900 was "better for you, maybe", while N97 was the phone
recommended for normal people :-P?.

On Fri, May 6, 2011 at 12:33 PM, Sivan Greenberg <sivan@omniqueue.com> wrote:

> just creates confusion and discontent. I think the best thing would be
> to wait for a Nokia MeeGo developer edition release which should be
> hopefully aligned with the compliance and would seamlessly integrate
> into the current meego.com infrastructure.

The N900DE is nowhere near Harmattan in functionality yet, so it's
going to be a longish wait.

On Fri, May 6, 2011 at 5:24 AM, Andrew Flegg <andrew@bleb.org> wrote:

> On Fri, May 6, 2011 at 10:15, Cosimo Kroll <zehjotkah@googlemail.com>
> wrote:
> > Just wait a little bit... ;)
>
> I'm not sure this teasing is helpful. If you know something (like
> Ville inevitably does), you should either helpfully hint around the
> limits of what you can discuss; or be quiet about it.
>
> As Ville asks, what *kind* of things could be revealed as part of a
> Nokia device announcement which would affect whether meego.com,
> maemo.org, somewhere else or a mess between them is the place to
> discuss a Harmattan platform?
>
> Cheers,
>
> Andrew
>

Hi all,

Thanks for the discussion. To answer the initial question, t.m.o. and maemo
community lists will remain open for discussions of Harmattan, if for no
other reason that maemo.org is an open community and we let people discuss
things as they wish here. Certainly, there are discussions which are more
off-topic than Harmattan. This is not to say that Council will be passive,
and might not make some changes in an attempt to keep the community vibrant
in view of the challenges that we know lie ahead.

As to Ville's request for information considered relevant, I can answer for
myself at this time, and with the advice that this topic (and others!) is to
be discussed by Council at the Conference, probably some time late on
Sunday:

1) Clarification of the SW Architecture - Is it Meego Core OS with a Nokia
custom UI or UX on top? QGil has said MeeGo APIs, but now Dave Neary says
some legacy Maemo APIs (in addition?).
2) To what extent is the Nokia custom part open source?
3) MeeGo compliance
4) To what extent is the Harmattan custom UI or UX familiar to users of
Maemo5 or Maemo 4.1?
5) To what extent will developers of Maemo5 and Maemo 4.1 apps be
comfortable with Harmattan and find it a "natural" extension.

Although it was not asked, another important component to the reception of
Harmattan at maemo.org is, I hate to say it, Nokia's overture (or lack
thereof) to maemo.org. They could be cooperative or not, and that does
still matter.

I agree with Andrew that the thing is a mess. I think that's beyond the
control of maemo.org. Perhaps we can try to clarify things through
discussions with MeeGo people - core Meego OS goes to meego.com and
Harmattan UI and UX are with maemo.org or something more strained than
that. But the division is admittedly not good - we'll have to see. I hope
we get some clarity at the conference.

Rob