the hell of Maemo repos

sebastian maemo wrote:
> Not an end-user has done non-specific whining at all. This thread started
> because of a specific question before deriving into a flame...

The tone of your first message in this thread was completely
inappropriate, and has remained so throughout.

> The specific question was and still is that kismet package has just
> completely disappeared from all known repos... It was and still is all...

There is only one person in the world who can answer that "question":
Cezary Jackiewicz (cezary (at) eko.one.pl), who is the maintainer of the
eko1 repository. You should ask for more information about why s/he
took down the repository and if s/he plans to make the packages
available in extras or elsewhere. Cezary's site is in Polish, and it's
not clear if s/he speaks English, though.

Nokia and the Maemo community have nothing to do with the availability
of the eko1 repository or the packages in it. Please drop this
unproductive thread unless you manage to contact Cezary and wish to
relay his/her response.

Thanks,
Mike Lococo

On Nov 21, 2008, at 8:00 PM, sebastian maemo wrote:

> 2008/11/22 Ryan Abel <rabelg5@gmail.com>
> >
> > Nobody's arguing that moving things to the maemo repositories is
> bad,
> > the issue is the process.
>
> The specific question was and still is that kismet package has just
> completely disappeared from all known repos... It was and still is
> all...


The specific _accusation_ was that there was some sort of conspiracy
from Nokia to keep kismet out of a repo they don't control. That's not
a question.

If you had been after answers you would've either emailed the
maintainer directly or asked something like "Hey, does anybody know
where I can get ahold of the Kismet that used to be in the eko1
repository?" Instead, you started off accusing people of some grand
conspiracy and started a flamewar.

--
Ryan Abel
Maemo Community Council chair

2008/11/22 Mike Lococo <mikelococo@gmail.com>

>
> The tone of your first message in this thread was completely
> inappropriate, and has remained so throughout.


Ok, I understand. The tone of my first message in this thread was completely
inappropiate. It's all my fault... But to change repositories organization
and lose packages in the middle is not a fault at all neither inappropiate:
it's just something that happens and that's all... you take it or you leave
it... I'm getting used to it...

Nokia and the Maemo community have nothing to do with the availability
> of the eko1 repository or the packages in it.


Sure... Nokia has got nothing to do with anything related with the packages
I need for my 770... and Maemo has nothing to do with Nokia... I understand
perfectly what you mean...

Everything's clear now. Thank you very much.

Sorry for the bothering thread.

Salut,
Sebas.

2008/11/22 Ryan Abel <rabelg5@gmail.com>

>
> The specific _accusation_ was that there was some sort of conspiracy from
> Nokia to keep kismet out of a repo they don't control. That's not a
> question.


Sorry, you're right. I thought there was some kind of conspiracy... now I
realize it was some incompetent's mistake... Sorry if it was you, I wouldn't
like to be inappropiate again...

If you had been after answers you would've either emailed the maintainer
> directly or asked something like "Hey, does anybody know where I can get
> ahold of the Kismet that used to be in the eko1 repository?" Instead, you
> started off accusing people of some grand conspiracy and started a flamewar.


Yes, I was a bit stressed maybe because every semester I have the same
problem when I happen to reflash my Nokia 770 and am unable to find the
fucking packages I need for my fucking unusable tablet... Sorry about that
and my stressed unpolite fucking language...

Excuse me, next time I won't bother you at all with inappropiate complaining
threads... Maybe I will just throw my 770 to where I should have thrown it
long time ago: to the garbage...

Have a nice day.

Salut,
Sebas.

Shivkumar Chandrasekaran wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
>> I always have to make a minimum of three
>>> attempts to
>>> update the package lists before it finally goes through.
>
>> Then something's wrong with your internet, your tablet, or wrong with
>> the repositories you've added to your catalog. I haven't had a failed
>> refresh in a long time.
>
> This happens to me all the time too on my 770. So I have kept upgrading
> my OS. Now I am on the latest hacker's edition for 770 and I still keep
> running into it. It could be a problem on my end, but this happens
> consistently on 3 different networks, so I wonder if the problem is with
> the 770.
>
> - --shiv--

Clearly, it's App Manager and/or the maemo server that has something wrong with
it. Others have noted this problem as well. Even if a repository is gone or has
a problem, it should skip it and finish the refresh, with a message that
notifies the user of what repository(ies) caused the problem. I've let it sit
overnight before and it still won't finish or even give a message - it just sits
there. when I cancel, it gives the "not refreshed" message. I have to keep
canceling and starting the refresh again. Eventually it succeeds. It does this
no matter what network I'm on. I've tried eliminating invalid catalogs, but I
don't have that many in the first place, so it wasn't hard to rule that out.
Also, refreshing with apt-get never has a problem.

Mark

> 2008/11/22 Ryan Abel <rabelg5@gmail.com <mailto:rabelg5@gmail.com>>
>
> If you had been after answers you would've either emailed the
> maintainer directly

Yeah, because every end-user knows exactly how to do that... NOT!

> or asked something like "Hey, does anybody know
> where I can get ahold of the Kismet that used to be in the eko1
> repository?" Instead, you started off accusing people of some grand
> conspiracy and started a flamewar.
>

...Because it's soooo easy to be levelheaded when, for the umpteenth time, you
go to do an update for an app you're about to use, and suddenly everything goes
to crap and you're out of luck.

Everybody who owns one of these tablets is not a developer. An awful lot of us
bought them because we were taken in by the hype and only found out later that
they don't do what we expected. The average consumer doesn't know or care nearly
enough about computers to overcome these problems. They need devices that "just
work".

Yeah, I know what you're going to say now... "buyer beware" (great! let's all
never buy another Nokia product!)... "you should research and know exactly what
you're getting before you buy" (as though that were possible or reliable or we
didn't try to do exactly that)... Sorry, but the package (and any POS info)
should say exactly what you're getting, and most of the time it does. Some
countries have laws against false advertising...

Mark

Mark Haury wrote:
> Everybody who owns one of these tablets is not a developer.
according to original poster he was after Kismet. That is not a toy your
"average" user would install. He did know what he was asking for. He did
know about etiquette on ML and he should've checked the facts before
accusing people. Mark, you didn't help the cause - you've inflamed issue
too. Sorry, that's the sad truth.

I'm involved to a different degree with different Linux and *BSD
distributions (porting applications and such) and My first reaction was
exactly like Ryan's: why didn't you ask repo owner? Seriously - having
no affiliations with Nokia and being far from delusional about Nokia's
goals (like any other company) I think that this flame-ball was rolling
out for nothing. Eko was responsible for providing service to community.
Eko was the one who delivered package in the first place. Eko decided to
take it offline without much comment or advising substitute solutions.
You SHOULD BE ASKING EKO. Fact that nobody else has a mirror of eko's
content is a fault of ... wait for it.... EKO.

I've got my issues with Maemo and Nokia's handling of the platform, but
this one has nothing to do with Nokia. It is clearly repo owner's
fault/mistake/responsibility.

I wouldn't be surprised if repo owner took message from Nokia (no matter
how polite it was written) for "cease and desist" message give the fact
that his native tongue is polish.

Here, I'll ask him for you to get information about why did he not move
contents of his repo to Extras. I'll report later with his response.

sebastian maemo wrote:
> Yes, I was a bit stressed maybe because every semester I have the same
> problem when I happen to reflash my Nokia 770 and am unable to find the
> fucking packages I need for my fucking unusable tablet... Sorry about that
> and my stressed unpolite fucking language...
>
first of all: why do you reflash your 770? Ever since I've got my 800 I
have reflashed it exactly once - to get Diablo. Is there some specific
requirement of 770 to reflash it so often? Is that because of the fact
that pre-diablo systems can't be upgraded without reflash?

Secondly: you seem to know which packages you want/like/use. Why don't
you have them handy someplace safe? every linux system I own (which is
much more than one) has a "cache" of packages I have installed currently
in one form or another so that in case my system/internet/something else
goes in flames - I can rebuild safely. You reflash your device - you
know you will need packages you have installed currently, why do you not
keep copy of them? You seem like an "advanced" kind of person. It's a
common sense, considering you've ran into that problem before.

Instead of accusing Nokia I would suggest to go to the "source" of the
problem and ask repo maintainers for reasons why repo has disappeared
and what are the alternative solutions if any. Just going around and
blaming the biggest elephant in the zoo is not going to bring back to
life your goat that escaped over the fence. Yes, situation with repos is
a Zoo and Nokia is the biggest animal there so it is convenient to yell
at them at all times, but not always is it their fault. I'm an N800
user. I shot my foot off on more than one occasion just because I've
decided to get "adventurous" and include or enable something Nokia has
very little (if any) control over. Would I want Nokia to seize control
and protect me from myself? No. I want to be able to screw up and learn
from it. What you're asking is for Nokia to take full controll. No
apples here thankyouverymuch. I like my eco-system exactly the way it
is. Repos are responsible for their content and are should answer to
their users. Nokia is (as a repo owner) reponsible for content in it's
*own* repos and it should remain that way. I applaud their effort
consolidating repos, however I don't expect that Nokia will have all
repos consolidated. And *that* is up to repo owners. Repo owner took
repo offline - ask them.

P.S.
Sorry for intermixing Nokia and Maemo.org - for simplicity of the
argument I think it's quite obvious what I'm trying to say.

On Nov 21, 2008, at 10:58 PM, Mark Haury wrote:

> Shivkumar Chandrasekaran wrote:
>
>> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>> Hash: SHA1
>>
>>> I always have to make a minimum of three
>>>> attempts to
>>>> update the package lists before it finally goes through.
>>
>>> Then something's wrong with your internet, your tablet, or wrong
>>> with
>>> the repositories you've added to your catalog. I haven't had a
>>> failed
>>> refresh in a long time.
>>
>> This happens to me all the time too on my 770. So I have kept
>> upgrading
>> my OS. Now I am on the latest hacker's edition for 770 and I still
>> keep
>> running into it. It could be a problem on my end, but this happens
>> consistently on 3 different networks, so I wonder if the problem is
>> with
>> the 770.
>>
>> - --shiv--
>
> Clearly, it's App Manager and/or the maemo server that has something
> wrong with
> it.

Clearly it's not. The maemo.org repositories are working fine, the
Nokia repositories are working fine, so we're down to two culprits
something local to the user or one of the half-dozen other
repositories I'm sure they're using. . . .

> Even if a repository is gone or has
> a problem, it should skip it and finish the refresh, with a message
> that
> notifies the user of what repository(ies) caused the problem.

Hey, it does _exactly_ this in Diablo. . . .

--
Ryan Abel
Maemo Community Council chair

I don't know (and don't care frankly) if this has already been said but tz1
plans to upload kismet soon to extras-devel. Tz1's version of kismet works a
lot better than the one from Eko1 anyway (I've run tz1's kismet successfully
on an N800 for 24 hours. People could not even get 1 hour with Eko1's
version).

On Fri, Nov 21, 2008 at 6:19 PM, sebastian maemo
<sebastian.maemo@gmail.com>wrote:

> What the Hell is going on with Maemo repositories?
>
> Today I've been trying to install kismet package, and after trying to
> download it from eko.one.pl I found the following warning message:<http://eko.one.pl/maemo/>
>
> ***********************************************************************************************
> Eko1 repo was shut down, due to request of maemo.org's webmaster. (
> https://wiki.maemo.org/Task:Reducing_number_of_external_repositories) Use
> Extras from maemo repo.
>
> ***********************************************************************************************
>
> But what the Hell... This package is not any more in Extras maemo
> repository! so that it has just disappeared...
>
> Come on, Quim... what good excuse are you going to tell us now...?
>
> Is Nokia (or Maemo) trying to save our souls from the sin of using kismet?
>
> Is it just a coincidence? (How many of them... nevertheless)
>
> Salut,
> Sebas.
>
> PD: Sorry very much if you find this message unpolite, but I'm really fed
> up with this kind of situations...
>
>
>