Aw: Re: the hell of Maemo repos

Hi,

ext Mark Haury wrote:
> Ryan Abel wrote:
>>> Yes, upgrade to Diablo, it has a much more useful Application Manager. :)
>
> ...and a bunch of other stuff is broken that previously worked...
>
>>> If that's not an option, running apt-get update as root in xterm will
>>> give you more verbose errors
>
> ...which is fine for advanced users, but not an option for the average consumer
> end-user. Just getting root access is not trivial.

Didn't the Application manager log provide enough information?

(And if not, what was missing from it and could you file a bug about
that?)


> If you're going to sell a device that requires significant Linux knowledge to
> use, that should be clearly stated in any sales information.

You're mailing on the "maemo-users" list, which in its
"sales information":
https://lists.maemo.org/mailman//listinfo/maemo-users

states that it's:
"A list for users of maemo Development Platform."

(It's a bit confusing name.)


Maemo development platform information:
http://maemo.org/development/

states:
--------------
Developing Maemo applications and platform components is easy if you are
used to programming Linux desktop applications or other components, and
fairly simple if you already know about Linux and GTK+.
--------------

I'm not sure whether that can be taken as "requires significant Linux
knowledge", but the developer users should be able to use apt at least.


- Eero

On Nov 24, 2008, at 8:37 AM, Eero Tamminen wrote:

> Hi,
>
> ext Mark Haury wrote:
>> Ryan Abel wrote:
>>>> Yes, upgrade to Diablo, it has a much more useful Application
>>>> Manager. :)
>>
>> ...and a bunch of other stuff is broken that previously worked...
>>
>>>> If that's not an option, running apt-get update as root in xterm
>>>> will
>>>> give you more verbose errors
>>
>> ...which is fine for advanced users, but not an option for the
>> average consumer
>> end-user. Just getting root access is not trivial.
>
> Didn't the Application manager log provide enough information?
>
> (And if not, what was missing from it and could you file a bug about
> that?)

He was using Bora, so, no, but any bug filed would be WORKSFORME, so
it's a moot discussion.

>> If you're going to sell a device that requires significant Linux
>> knowledge to
>> use, that should be clearly stated in any sales information.
>
> You're mailing on the "maemo-users" list, which in its
> "sales information":
> https://lists.maemo.org/mailman//listinfo/maemo-users
>
> states that it's:
> "A list for users of maemo Development Platform."
>
> (It's a bit confusing name.)


With the redefinition of Maemo and the shift in maemo.org's role, the
description really should be changed. Whatever it's supposed to be,
it's definitely a list of users of Maemo these days.

Either way, his point about Linux knowledge is also moot, as nothing
of the sort is required for either as-advertised usage or most things
outside of that. . . .

--
Ryan Abel
Maemo Community Council chair

On Mon, Nov 24, 2008 at 6:37 AM, Eero Tamminen <eero.tamminen@nokia.com> wrote:
>> If you're going to sell a device that requires significant Linux knowledge
>> to use, that should be clearly stated in any sales information.
>
> You're mailing on the "maemo-users" list, which in its
> "sales information":
> https://lists.maemo.org/mailman//listinfo/maemo-users
>
> states that it's:
> "A list for users of maemo Development Platform."
>
> (It's a bit confusing name.)
>

As a matter of fact, it's not just confusing, it's inaccurate. As
maemo.org is where all tablet users are pointed to get new apps and
updates for their tablets, it's not just a development environment,
it's the platform. A list that is strictly for developers should be
named "maemo-app-developers", because they use the maemo environment
to develop apps.

Really the fundamental problem is that the consumer-oriented stuff
(apps, updates, wiki) should never have been part of the maemo site.
It should be part of ITT or some other site with a completely
different name. The way it's been done is bizarre and can't possibly
be anything other than confusing.

The maemo site is also much more useful and usable than ITT. But then,
that's further evidence that the devices are aimed at developers even
though they are marketed to consumers...

But that's not what we're talking about anyway. The point was who the
Tablets are marketed to, not the mailing list itself. At this point in
time, no average PDA user is going to have much success with the
Tablets without learning a bunch of Linux and getting their hands
dirty under the hood. That's hardly consumer-friendly.

Mark

On Nov 24, 2008, at 11:05 AM, Mark wrote:

> On Mon, Nov 24, 2008 at 6:37 AM, Eero Tamminen <eero.tamminen@nokia.com
> > wrote:
>>> If you're going to sell a device that requires significant Linux
>>> knowledge
>>> to use, that should be clearly stated in any sales information.
>>
>> You're mailing on the "maemo-users" list, which in its
>> "sales information":
>> https://lists.maemo.org/mailman//listinfo/maemo-users
>>
>> states that it's:
>> "A list for users of maemo Development Platform."
>>
>> (It's a bit confusing name.)
>>
>
> As a matter of fact, it's not just confusing, it's inaccurate. As
> maemo.org is where all tablet users are pointed to get new apps and
> updates for their tablets, it's not just a development environment,
> it's the platform. A list that is strictly for developers should be
> named "maemo-app-developers", because they use the maemo environment
> to develop apps.

It's plenty clear and correct as it actually stands (the website
needing to be updated is another issue). maemo-users is for users of
Maemo, maemo-developers is for developers of Maemo and Maemo
applications.

> Really the fundamental problem is that the consumer-oriented stuff
> (apps, updates, wiki) should never have been part of the maemo site.
> It should be part of ITT or some other site with a completely
> different name. The way it's been done is bizarre and can't possibly
> be anything other than confusing.

Well, no, the fundamental problem is that "maemo" was originally the
development platform (not the whole platform, or the OS), so maemo.org
was where developers went to do developer things. Somebody who used
"maemo" was a developer, thus maemo-users. Then things shifted, and
maemo.org started focusing on more than just developers and "maemo"
started referring to more than the development platform.

Problem is, there was a period where the community usage and Nokia's
intended usage didn't quite sync up (notice they never referred to the
firmware shipped with the tablets as "maemo", only "Internet Tablet
2006" or "Internet Tablet OS 2008" or "OS2008"). Then Nokia decided
that they wanted to use the maemo trademark, and maemo became Maemo,
OSSO became Maemo Software, and the community picked up maemo.org.

So, today:

Maemo: the platform
Maemo Software: a division within Nokia working on Maemo
maemo.org: the home of the Maemo Community

> The maemo site is also much more useful and usable than ITT. But then,
> that's further evidence that the devices are aimed at developers even
> though they are marketed to consumers...

Er, no, it's evidence that itT is a web forum with some extra stuff
sort of half-heartedly slapped on it and a user-base not very
interested in maintaining its wiki.

maemo.org is the home of the Maemo Community, where anybody interested
in participating in the community should go. Nokia will be shifting
the official development (particularly commercial development) stuff
to Forum Nokia and the real user stuff to maemo.nokia.com.

Forum Nokia for commercial developers
maemo.nokia.com for real users (i.e., the ones who don't know Linux
that concern you so much)
maemo.org for community activity, and users and developers who want to
do interesting things with their devices

It should all become clear as these new sites go live, as it's really
quite simple and not particularly confusing at all.

> But that's not what we're talking about anyway. The point was who the
> Tablets are marketed to, not the mailing list itself. At this point in
> time, no average PDA user is going to have much success with the
> Tablets without learning a bunch of Linux and getting their hands
> dirty under the hood. That's hardly consumer-friendly.


The tablets aren't really _marketed_ to anybody, as Nokia doesn't
actually market them. I've yet to see anybody convincingly back up the
claim that a "bunch of Linux" is required to use the device "as
advertised", but this argument seems to be made up mostly of emotion,
and I've had it more times than I care to remember, so I'm quite
certain I know what the result of this one will be. Feel free to prove
me wrong, though.

--
Ryan Abel
Maemo Community Council chair

On Mon, Nov 24, 2008 at 4:45 PM, Ryan Abel <rabelg5@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Nov 24, 2008, at 11:05 AM, Mark wrote:
>
>> But that's not what we're talking about anyway. The point was who the
>> Tablets are marketed to, not the mailing list itself. At this point in
>> time, no average PDA user is going to have much success with the
>> Tablets without learning a bunch of Linux and getting their hands
>> dirty under the hood. That's hardly consumer-friendly.
>
> The tablets aren't really _marketed_ to anybody, as Nokia doesn't
> actually market them. I've yet to see anybody convincingly back up the
> claim that a "bunch of Linux" is required to use the device "as
> advertised", but this argument seems to be made up mostly of emotion,
> and I've had it more times than I care to remember, so I'm quite
> certain I know what the result of this one will be. Feel free to prove
> me wrong, though.

My toddler (seen to those of you at the Summit on Saturday -
eventually) happily uses the bookmarks menu on an N810, can start Tux
Paint, can navigate to his folder of shortcuts and can then navigate
the web browser.

My wife uses an N810, installs applications, browses the web etc.

Neither know any Linux command line incantations. It's not perfect at
the moment, but it *is* a lot better than people say.

Cheers,

Andrew

--
Andrew Flegg -- mailto:andrew@bleb.org | http://www.bleb.org/
maemo.org Community Council member

Andrew Flegg wrote:
> On Mon, Nov 24, 2008 at 4:45 PM, Ryan Abel <rabelg5@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Nov 24, 2008, at 11:05 AM, Mark wrote:
>>
>>> But that's not what we're talking about anyway. The point was who the
>>> Tablets are marketed to, not the mailing list itself. At this point in
>>> time, no average PDA user is going to have much success with the
>>> Tablets without learning a bunch of Linux and getting their hands
>>> dirty under the hood. That's hardly consumer-friendly.
>> The tablets aren't really _marketed_ to anybody, as Nokia doesn't
>> actually market them. I've yet to see anybody convincingly back up the
>> claim that a "bunch of Linux" is required to use the device "as
>> advertised", but this argument seems to be made up mostly of emotion,
>> and I've had it more times than I care to remember, so I'm quite
>> certain I know what the result of this one will be. Feel free to prove
>> me wrong, though.
>
> My toddler (seen to those of you at the Summit on Saturday -
> eventually) happily uses the bookmarks menu on an N810, can start Tux
> Paint, can navigate to his folder of shortcuts and can then navigate
> the web browser.
>
> My wife uses an N810, installs applications, browses the web etc.
>
> Neither know any Linux command line incantations. It's not perfect at
> the moment, but it *is* a lot better than people say.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Andrew
>

Has either of them tried to flash the tablet? Had an update fail? Frankly,
they've just been lucky so far. Sooner or later there's going to be a problem
they can't fix, and it's going to be up to you to deal with it. Either that, or
they're never going to do an update or upgrade, and could just as well be using
a PalmOS device, because they're not using any of the features or apps unique to
the tablets.

Mark

Mark

Hi,

ext Mark Haury wrote:
> Has either of them tried to flash the tablet?

I think only power users do that. So called normal users would
probably go to a Nokia service point...?


> Had an update fail?

I think the SSU related bugs in the pre-installed packages can
be triggered only(?) by changes people have done from the command
line, like removing the pre-defined folders, doing symlinks,
removing/replacing packages not visible in application manager.

Because of this Nokia testing hadn't catched them. We of course are
interested about power user problems and try to fix them, but the
testing effort naturally concentrates to what normal people can and
do with the devices.


> Frankly,
> they've just been lucky so far. Sooner or later there's going to be a problem
> they can't fix, and it's going to be up to you to deal with it. Either that, or
> they're never going to do an update or upgrade, and could just as well be using
> a PalmOS device, because they're not using any of the features or apps unique to
> the tablets.

Quality of the 3rd party software rests mostly with the community
and that will hopefully get better with time. :-)


- Eero

Ryan Abel wrote:
> http://wiki.maemo.org/Updating_the_tablet_firmware

I'm about to flash to Diablo. Everything is backed up, but in case I
need it, whereabouts (what file) are my wlan connection data stored? I
know most of the dozen or so access points I use regularly but there are
a few that I'd like to be able to retrieve.

I assumed they would be in one of the %gconf.xml files user /etc but a
quick grep doesn't turn up anything useful.

///Peter

On Wed, Nov 26, 2008 at 2:06 AM, Peter Flynn <peter@silmaril.ie> wrote:
> Ryan Abel wrote:
>> http://wiki.maemo.org/Updating_the_tablet_firmware
>
> I'm about to flash to Diablo. Everything is backed up, but in case I
> need it, whereabouts (what file) are my wlan connection data stored? I
> know most of the dozen or so access points I use regularly but there are
> a few that I'd like to be able to retrieve.

You won't need it. If you've backed up "Settings", access points are
included[1].

> I assumed they would be in one of the %gconf.xml files user /etc but a
> quick grep doesn't turn up anything useful.

However, for reference purposes only, the definitions are in:

/var/lib/gconf/system/osso/connectivity/IAP/

Hope that helps,

Andrew

[1] Be aware of bugs #3335 and #3542 which bit me when upgrading to Diablo.
https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=3335
https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=3542

--
Andrew Flegg -- mailto:andrew@bleb.org | http://www.bleb.org/
maemo.org Community Council member

Andrew Flegg wrote:
> On Wed, Nov 26, 2008 at 2:06 AM, Peter Flynn <peter@silmaril.ie> wrote:
>> Ryan Abel wrote:
>>> http://wiki.maemo.org/Updating_the_tablet_firmware
>> I'm about to flash to Diablo. Everything is backed up, but in case I
>> need it, whereabouts (what file) are my wlan connection data stored? I
>> know most of the dozen or so access points I use regularly but there are
>> a few that I'd like to be able to retrieve.
>
> You won't need it. If you've backed up "Settings", access points are
> included[1].

Backup never worked; it always hung. I just backed up by tgz'ing /etc
and /home/user to a spare SD card. But I couldn't identify where the
data was...

>> I assumed they would be in one of the %gconf.xml files user /etc but a
>> quick grep doesn't turn up anything useful.
>
> However, for reference purposes only, the definitions are in:
>
> /var/lib/gconf/system/osso/connectivity/IAP/

Ah. How clever of them to keep it out of /etc or ~/.gconf :-)
No matter, I did a system-wide tar, but I just re-entered the ones I needed.

> Hope that helps,

Perfectly, thanks.

> [1] Be aware of bugs #3335 and #3542 which bit me when upgrading to Diablo.
> https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=3335
> https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=3542

Thanks. Fortunately I only use 3 feeds, all easily applied. Is modest
the built-in mailer? I'll be using claws anyway.

///Peter