Wayfinder Navigator vs Garmin

All,

recently I obtained a Garmin nuvi 200w GPS^1,2 and I was surprised
(actually floored) by how easy it is to use and how accurate are the
maps and points of interest. This leads me to wonder how the quality of
this Garmin product compares with that of the Wayfinder Navigator^3
software when used on the N810 with its built in GPS receiver. Does
anyone here have any experience with this software on the N810? And if
so, what are your impressions?

--


1.
http://www.amazon.com/Garmin-200W-4-3-Inch-Widescreen-Navigator/dp/B000QUZV9O


2. http://www.garmin.com/garmin/cms/site/us


3 . http://www.wayfinder.com/internettablet


Best Regards,



John Holmblad



Acadia Secure Networks, LLC

* *


<mailto:jholmblad@verizon.net>

I have a tomtom 510 which is now old, but still much easier to use
than the tablet's wayfinder app. The tablet still feels like it's
nice to have if you need it, rather than that you have to have it if
that makes sense.



On Tue, Jun 24, 2008 at 10:27 AM, John Holmblad
<jholmblad@acadiasecurenets.com> wrote:
> All,
>
> recently I obtained a Garmin nuvi 200w GPS^1,2 and I was surprised
> (actually floored) by how easy it is to use and how accurate are the
> maps and points of interest. This leads me to wonder how the quality of
> this Garmin product compares with that of the Wayfinder Navigator^3
> software when used on the N810 with its built in GPS receiver. Does
> anyone here have any experience with this software on the N810? And if
> so, what are your impressions?
>
> --
>
>
> 1.
> http://www.amazon.com/Garmin-200W-4-3-Inch-Widescreen-Navigator/dp/B000QUZV9O
>
>
> 2. http://www.garmin.com/garmin/cms/site/us
>
>
> 3 . http://www.wayfinder.com/internettablet
>
>
> Best Regards,
>
>
>
> John Holmblad
>
>
>
> Acadia Secure Networks, LLC
>
> * *
>
>
> <mailto:jholmblad@verizon.net>
>
>
>



--
Jonathan Greene
+1.914.750.8740
AIM / iChat - atmasphere
gtalk / jabber - jonathangreene@gmail.com
Skype / Gizmo - JonathanGreene
blogs - http://www.atmasphere.net/wp / http://www.maemoapps.com

On Tue, Jun 24, 2008 at 8:27 AM, John Holmblad
<jholmblad@acadiasecurenets.com> wrote:
> All,
>
> recently I obtained a Garmin nuvi 200w GPS^1,2 and I was surprised
> (actually floored) by how easy it is to use and how accurate are the
> maps and points of interest. This leads me to wonder how the quality of
> this Garmin product compares with that of the Wayfinder Navigator^3
> software when used on the N810 with its built in GPS receiver. Does
> anyone here have any experience with this software on the N810? And if
> so, what are your impressions?
>

*Any* Garmin unit is a thousand times better than the built-in
Wayfinder app. My StreetPilot 2710 is ancient (and huge) by GPS
standards, but is far more powerful, user-friendly and accurate than
the Wayfinder Map application. It doesn't have the "3d" view, but in
every other way is better. Even though the map data in my 2710 is at
least 5 years old, it's still more comprehensive and accurate than
Map. Probably *any* standalone GPS navigator is several steps up from
Map. Also, there seems to be a lot more lag time on the tablet app, so
you may already be past your turn when it appears on screen that
you're just approaching. Not that much of a problem in rural
limited-access highways, but it can be a real problem in cities.

If you're walking or bicycling, Wayfinder Map is probably fine.

The one advantage of the Wayfinder app is that it has a database of
WiFi hotspots.

I have an N800 with external bluetooth receiver, but the application
itself is identical as that in the N810, and I doubt the hardware
differences have any impact on usage of the app.

Mark

On Tue, 24 Jun 2008, John Holmblad wrote:

> recently I obtained a Garmin nuvi 200w GPS^1,2 and I was surprised
> (actually floored) by how easy it is to use and how accurate are the
> maps and points of interest. This leads me to wonder how the quality of
> this Garmin product compares with that of the Wayfinder Navigator^3
> software when used on the N810 with its built in GPS receiver. Does
> anyone here have any experience with this software on the N810? And if
> so, what are your impressions?

I have used maemo-mapper, Nokia map-2.2.6 (the N810 bundled app), and a
now somewhat dated Garmin GPSmap76. I haven't tried Wayfinder (the
fee-based routing service).

The first time I tried "map", I was floored (as you put it) by how bad it
was compared to the Garmin. I was in Prince George, and when I zoomed out
to see the whole city, it did not show the airport (kind of a major
feature and one I was trying to get to). I have since revised my opinion
upwards slightly.

I haven't tried the newer Garmins, or anything with routing software
except maemo-mapper, which uses the Google API online. I bought the
GPSmap76 to use on a boat. It accepts Garmin's excellent range of
BlueChart nautical charts - a bit pricey one might think at about
$200/licence, but paper ones would cost 10x that. This (having nautical
charts) is an overriding consideration if you actually have a boat rather
than a car which stays on public roads. NMEA output to drive an autopilot
is nice, too - not that I'd trust it to drive a car :-) except maybe a
4x4 in the Australian outback...

The GPSmap has a small monochrome screen (which one can read in sunlight,
though prolonged exposure darkens the display). My N810 has a larger
colour screen (nice), though somewhat hard to read in sunlight. When
driving a vehicle, when you can't fiddle with the display, the large
display and rather sparse detail on the Nokia map is an advantage. When
parked, or when you can give the thing more attention, the lack of detail
is frustrating. With the GPSmap, the small screen size and slow redraw
time makes it hard to get the "big picture" - I still have paper charts
for that.

The GPSmap (OK, it's old) uses RS232 to upload maps from CD using Garmin
software running under Windows. It takes forever (well, 20 minutes) and
you can't add just one map, you have to build a new set on the PC and
upload the whole thing.
My unit came with a "basemap" (coarse street map). Nautical charts, topo,
city maps I had to buy (some can be had on P2P).
Newer units use USB. Maemo-mapper downloads maps in realtime from the
Internet (it also caches tiles for offline use). Nokia
map will download new map packages from the Internet, but the coverage
outside North America and Europe is not so good I hear.


The Garmin uses object-oriented vector-based maps. Map objects (roads,
rivers, lakes, cities, parks...) can be individually set to low/med/high
detail or turned off. Text can be scaled or turned off. Kind of like
drawings in AutoCAD or XFig. Maemo-mapper uses image-tile-based maps
(exactly like Google maps). Markup such as labels are part of the image
and if they happen to cover what you are looking at, too bad. You can't
change the amount of detail except by zooming in and loading a
higher-resolution image. Nokia map behaves the same way; I believe it is
also an image-based system.

There is some software to create Garmin maps; it's somewhat complicated.
I made one by tracing over a satellite photo. I haven't looked at making
maps for maemo-mapper; it ought to be pretty simple in comparison.

Garmin supports multiple concurrent maps. Normally, one wins out at a
particular scale so that e.g. the topo map has precedence over the street
map.
But the standard supports transparency, so that a transparent map may be
overlaid on top of a regular one. So you can overlay ski runs over a topo
map, or a race route over a street map. This is really nice; pity it's so
hard...
Nokia map supports only one family of maps. I hear that it won't allow
US-West and US-East at the same time so if you live along the Mississipi
you have to keep switching.
Maemo-mapper supports multiple families, but not concurrently. You choose
between open-street, Google, Yahoo, Google satellite etc. There is no
overlay capability (someone should add it!)

On my Garmin I never tried loading points-of-interest. The software knows
about waypoints, routes (straight lines between waypoints), and tracks (a
log of where you've been). Usually the idea in a boat is to set a course
for a waypoint like a harbour entrance or some turning point off a
headland, and go straight there. On Nokia map I've used the POI database
successfully to find a motel, and on maemo-mapper I've downloaded Google
(highway) routes.

I have heard of Navit to view Garmin maps on the tablet. I have not
yet tried it. I believe it supports only the "open" maps, not the
licenced BlueChart ones.

I just looked at the Garmin FAQ re. Bluechart on the Nuvi. It says it
works, so I presume my comments about vector-based maps, transparency,
etc. on Garmin are still valid.
The GPSmap is waterproof, the Nuvi is not. (or the tablet..)

There is a whole other thread about time-to-first-fix in the N810 - in
brief, it can be very long compared to other devices.

www.garmin.com/products/gpsmap76
Can't get the "compare" feature to do marine vs. automobile :-(



--
Andrew Daviel, TRIUMF, Canada

On Tue, Jun 24, 2008 at 1:22 PM, Andrew Daviel <advax@triumf.ca> wrote:
> On Tue, 24 Jun 2008, John Holmblad wrote:
>
> I have used maemo-mapper, Nokia map-2.2.6 (the N810 bundled app), and a
> now somewhat dated Garmin GPSmap76. I haven't tried Wayfinder (the
> fee-based routing service).

In addition to those, I've tried NavIt and RoadMap. NavIT and RoadMap
are both promising, because they use offline vector maps that work
more like standalone GPS navigation units, but both are basically
pre-alpha at this point. I've had better success with RoadMap than
Navit, but the OpenStreetMap data they're using must be ancient,
because it has hardly any streets in my vicinity, and none at all in
my neighborhood, which has been covered for at least 18 months. If
maemo-mapper supported offline vector maps and had built-in routing,
it would be *the* killer app for the tablets, but as it is, if you
don't know ahead of time that you're going to be in a particular area
and download the maps for it ahead of time, it's useless without a
GPRS or EDGE connection. Also, bitmap images don't scale well, so if
you need to cover a large area with different levels of detail, you're
going to need a boatload of storage space. Vector maps are much more
efficient.

The built-in "Map" app *is* the Wayfinder app, you just have to pay
and get a code to activate the routing feature. The cost is
prohibitive (you can get a standalone GPS navigation unit for much
less than the license), so I haven't tried the routing.

>
> The first time I tried "map", I was floored (as you put it) by how bad it
> was compared to the Garmin. I was in Prince George, and when I zoomed out
> to see the whole city, it did not show the airport (kind of a major
> feature and one I was trying to get to). I have since revised my opinion
> upwards slightly.
>
> I haven't tried the newer Garmins, or anything with routing software
> except maemo-mapper, which uses the Google API online. I bought the
> GPSmap76 to use on a boat. It accepts Garmin's excellent range of
> BlueChart nautical charts - a bit pricey one might think at about
> $200/licence, but paper ones would cost 10x that. This (having nautical
> charts) is an overriding consideration if you actually have a boat rather
> than a car which stays on public roads. NMEA output to drive an autopilot
> is nice, too - not that I'd trust it to drive a car :-) except maybe a
> 4x4 in the Australian outback...
>
> The GPSmap has a small monochrome screen (which one can read in sunlight,
> though prolonged exposure darkens the display). My N810 has a larger
> colour screen (nice), though somewhat hard to read in sunlight. When
> driving a vehicle, when you can't fiddle with the display, the large
> display and rather sparse detail on the Nokia map is an advantage. When
> parked, or when you can give the thing more attention, the lack of detail
> is frustrating. With the GPSmap, the small screen size and slow redraw
> time makes it hard to get the "big picture" - I still have paper charts
> for that.
>
> The GPSmap (OK, it's old) uses RS232 to upload maps from CD using Garmin
> software running under Windows. It takes forever (well, 20 minutes) and
> you can't add just one map, you have to build a new set on the PC and
> upload the whole thing.
> My unit came with a "basemap" (coarse street map). Nautical charts, topo,
> city maps I had to buy (some can be had on P2P).
> Newer units use USB. Maemo-mapper downloads maps in realtime from the
> Internet (it also caches tiles for offline use). Nokia
> map will download new map packages from the Internet, but the coverage
> outside North America and Europe is not so good I hear.
>
>
> The Garmin uses object-oriented vector-based maps. Map objects (roads,
> rivers, lakes, cities, parks...) can be individually set to low/med/high
> detail or turned off. Text can be scaled or turned off. Kind of like
> drawings in AutoCAD or XFig. Maemo-mapper uses image-tile-based maps
> (exactly like Google maps). Markup such as labels are part of the image
> and if they happen to cover what you are looking at, too bad. You can't
> change the amount of detail except by zooming in and loading a
> higher-resolution image. Nokia map behaves the same way; I believe it is
> also an image-based system.
>
> There is some software to create Garmin maps; it's somewhat complicated.
> I made one by tracing over a satellite photo. I haven't looked at making
> maps for maemo-mapper; it ought to be pretty simple in comparison.
>
> Garmin supports multiple concurrent maps. Normally, one wins out at a
> particular scale so that e.g. the topo map has precedence over the street
> map.
> But the standard supports transparency, so that a transparent map may be
> overlaid on top of a regular one. So you can overlay ski runs over a topo
> map, or a race route over a street map. This is really nice; pity it's so
> hard...
> Nokia map supports only one family of maps. I hear that it won't allow
> US-West and US-East at the same time so if you live along the Mississipi
> you have to keep switching.
> Maemo-mapper supports multiple families, but not concurrently. You choose
> between open-street, Google, Yahoo, Google satellite etc. There is no
> overlay capability (someone should add it!)
>
> On my Garmin I never tried loading points-of-interest. The software knows
> about waypoints, routes (straight lines between waypoints), and tracks (a
> log of where you've been). Usually the idea in a boat is to set a course
> for a waypoint like a harbour entrance or some turning point off a
> headland, and go straight there. On Nokia map I've used the POI database
> successfully to find a motel, and on maemo-mapper I've downloaded Google
> (highway) routes.
>

My *really* old Garmin GPS III doesn't do routing, and has only a very
sketchy "basemap" with no possibility of loading street-level maps,
but even that easily loads points-of-interest as waypoints as well as
routes (based on waypoints, not streets). Many different apps support
uploading and downloading waypoints and routes to Garmin units.

>
> I have heard of Navit to view Garmin maps on the tablet. I have not
> yet tried it. I believe it supports only the "open" maps, not the
> licenced BlueChart ones.
>

Correct. It supports "Garmin format" maps, but not actual Garmin maps
because they are encrypted. It also supports OpenStreetMaps.

> I just looked at the Garmin FAQ re. Bluechart on the Nuvi. It says it
> works, so I presume my comments about vector-based maps, transparency,
> etc. on Garmin are still valid.
> The GPSmap is waterproof, the Nuvi is not. (or the tablet..)
>
> There is a whole other thread about time-to-first-fix in the N810 - in
> brief, it can be very long compared to other devices.

My bluetooth receiver that I use with my N800 usually locks on very
quickly and works great. It also can be placed nearly anywhere in the
vehicle, and frees the device to be located anywhere without
compromising reception. I recently used this setup to trace a hiking
trail in Rocky Mountain National Park. The GPSr sat in its little
neoprene case on top of my backpack, while the tablet rode safely
inside. I have to add that the Bluetooth receiver seems incredibly
sensitive - it gets strong readings on the bus and in many places that
my old Garmin GPS III can't get a lock at all. Presumably the N810s
can work with bluetooth GPSRs just as well. It would be cool if
somebody could work out a way to use a bluetooth and the internal
receivers simultaneously to increase accuracy.

Mark

On Tue, 24 Jun 2008, Mark wrote:

> The built-in "Map" app *is* the Wayfinder app, you just have to pay
> and get a code to activate the routing feature.

dpkg identifies it as "map - Map Application for Nokia Internet Tablet
OS". But yes, that's the one.

> My *really* old Garmin GPS III doesn't do routing, and has only a very
> sketchy "basemap" with no possibility of loading street-level maps,
> but even that easily loads points-of-interest as waypoints as well as
> routes (based on waypoints, not streets). Many different apps support
> uploading and downloading waypoints and routes to Garmin units.

I found one that works on Linux - gd2, which I rewrote as gd276 to
support my gpsmap76 (slightly different data format). Not GPX, though.
I have a script to take a Google Map URL and upload a waypoint, and
another to geotag my photos.

> Correct. It supports "Garmin format" maps, but not actual Garmin maps
> because they are encrypted. It also supports OpenStreetMaps.

BlueChart is encrypted. Some of the other "actual Garmin maps" like
enhanced basemap, roads and recreation and topo are not encrypted. Or
they didn't used to be. You used to be able to download the basemap off
Garmin's site in case you deleted it by accident, or reflashed the unit
and lost it.

> Presumably the N810s
> can work with bluetooth GPSRs just as well. It would be cool if
> somebody could work out a way to use a bluetooth and the internal
> receivers simultaneously to increase accuracy.

Yes, the N810 works with external b/t GPS. It's just ** annoying that we
paid extra $$ for a built-in GPS and Nokia customer support tell me that
I should buy one of their external units if I want good TTFF. I hear a
rumour that there is a software enhancement in the next release to speed
things up, maybe by downloading an ephemeris over the net.

Having 2 receivers will not improve accuracy by itself. My Garmin has
WAAS (North America only apparently; I hadn't realized - maybe EGNOS in
Europe). The N810 probably doesn't. Using a b/t receiver with WAAS/EGNOS
or DGPS capability (needs external radio receiver) would give better
accuracy, though I hadn't noticed my N810 being wildly off.

http://www8.garmin.com/aboutGPS/waas.html

--
Andrew Daviel, TRIUMF, Canada

John Holmblad schrieb:
> All,
Hi!

> recently I obtained a Garmin nuvi 200w GPS^1,2 and I was surprised
> (actually floored) by how easy it is to use and how accurate are the
> maps and points of interest. This leads me to wonder how the quality of
> this Garmin product compares with that of the Wayfinder Navigator^3
> software when used on the N810 with its built in GPS receiver. Does
> anyone here have any experience with this software on the N810? And if
> so, what are your impressions?

I hate to say so but the Navigator is the worst navigation application I
have seen so far.
The application itself lacks a lot of features current navigation
softwares have - like "avoid track ahead" when you hit a traffic jam.
The the usability is in parts painful. Choosing addresses is
inconsistant, partially non-intuitive, slow and awkward to use. Once it
caused me a detour of more than 200km because I chose "fastest" instead
of "shortest" on my way from Las Vegas to Phoenix - this is a major bug.
But worst of all the map data is inaccurate, outdated and incomplete.
Most house numbers I checked so far are plain wrong, many many POIs are
wrong (non existant or wrong position) etc.

For a free application for the Maemo devices it is OK.
But I would not buy the navigation upgrade - you can get a complete
device including better software and more accurate maps at the same price.

Sorry to say so...

Cheers
nils faerber

--
kernel concepts GbR Tel: +49-271-771091-12
Sieghuetter Hauptweg 48 Fax: +49-271-771091-19
D-57072 Siegen Mob: +49-176-21024535
--