Aw: Re: Re: the hell of Maemo repos

On Nov 22, 2008, at 5:38 PM, Mark Haury wrote:

> Peter Flynn wrote:
>
>> Is there anything available in Diablo or OS2008 that uses the camera
>> successfully? (Just curious)
>
> Er.. you may be referring to networked apps again. I don't know of
> any. The last
> time I checked, Skype and Gizmo didn't support the camera. Somebody
> correct me
> if that's changed. I can't find anything else.

Gizmo, aMSN, and rtcomm all support the camera. Please try doing a
little research before you just blurt thing out in the future. The
result of your blurting is usually threads exactly like this one.

--
Ryan Abel
Maemo Community Council chair

On Sat, Nov 22, 2008 at 10:19 PM, Peter Flynn <peter@silmaril.ie> wrote:
>
> Is there anything available in Diablo or OS2008 that uses the camera
> successfully? (Just curious)

The built in "Internet Call". It works very well when your wife/son
have an N810 at home, and you're working until 11pm practically every
night for 3 weeks. Being able to say "night night" to my toddler's the
only thing which has kept me (vaguely) sane.

> Ah. Yes. They got it badly wrong, which is surprising for Nokia. The
> market isn't suits who browse the web (and even if it was, all the more
> reason why they got the default PIM apps to disastrously wrong).

As Quim's asked before - what are you using to define "PIM"? The only
PIMish apps which ship with Maemo are Contacts and, arguably, Email.

> No PDA-sized browser is going to support all the hopelessly-broken web
> pages out there in the way that FF does, alas. But a version of
> Javascript that worked properly would be nice.

Eh? Define "worked properly": microb's JavaScript engine is perfectly
fine, and, IME, browsing is only hamstrung by CPU performance, memory
usage and screen size (and, to a degree, screen resolution).

Cheers,

Andrew

--
Andrew Flegg -- mailto:andrew@bleb.org | http://www.bleb.org/
maemo.org Community Council member

Andrew Flegg wrote:
> The built in "Internet Call". It works very well when your wife/son
> have an N810 at home, and you're working until 11pm practically every
> night for 3 weeks. Being able to say "night night" to my toddler's the
> only thing which has kept me (vaguely) sane.

That's a very excellent reason. Unfortunately I don't know anyone else
who has an N8** (present company excepted :-). If Pidgin and/or aMSN or
anything else with a widely-used video protocol works in Diablo with the
camera then that solves the problem.

> As Quim's asked before - what are you using to define "PIM"? The only
> PIMish apps which ship with Maemo are Contacts and, arguably, Email.

I'm surprised the question has to be asked. PIM apps universally are
Contacts and Calendar, but they have to link to each other plus whatever
you use for Browser, Email, and IM/SIP, which are not themselves PIM
apps. That is, adding a new contact (or updating an existing one) should
link the email address to the email app, the phone number to the SIP
app, the userid to the IM app, the homepage to the browser, and the
birthday to the Calendar (or link them the other way, whichever is
appropriate). Equally, changing one of those values in one of the apps
should be reflected in the other[s]. Calendar, for example, needs to
distinguish between events and appointments, allow multi-day events,
recurrent events, and provide for both copy and move functions. Contacts
needs to provide for linking between related people (co-workers, family,
etc), multiple phone numbers, email addresses, etc...

Sorry, that's all OT: this is no place to write the spec, but I am
slightly puzzled as to why anyone would ask: this is all basic,
fundamental usability stuff. Of course all that linking isn't going to
work with everything to start with, not until the individual authors,
especially the more corporate ones, get off their high horses about pet
favourite file formats for config files, and start using a common
standard. But an effort should be made. As I said, I'm no longer a
programmer; I'm a document engineer, and I write specs and docs, so once
my degree is out of the way (mid 2009) I am happy to give some time to
this if it would help.

>> No PDA-sized browser is going to support all the hopelessly-broken web
>> pages out there in the way that FF does, alas. But a version of
>> Javascript that worked properly would be nice.
>
> Eh? Define "worked properly": microb's JavaScript engine is perfectly
> fine, and, IME, browsing is only hamstrung by CPU performance, memory
> usage and screen size (and, to a degree, screen resolution).

"Work properly" :== behave the same way as the JavaScript in FF does.

OK, so that breaks on JScript and other excrescences, but it's an
accepted level of behaviour.

I only have experience with the JavaScript that comes by default with
the default browser for OS2007: I don't know if this is microb's
JavaScript or not. This often fails to position stuff where FF does (at
the same rez), and fails frequently to instantiate buttons and menus
that can be clicked (they're visible but don't operate). Maybe upgrading
to Diablo will fix this: I haven't dug into what browser comes with that.

///Peter

On Nov 23, 2008, at 7:39 AM, Peter Flynn wrote:

> I only have experience with the JavaScript that comes by default with
> the default browser for OS2007: I don't know if this is microb's
> JavaScript or not. This often fails to position stuff where FF does
> (at
> the same rez), and fails frequently to instantiate buttons and menus
> that can be clicked (they're visible but don't operate). Maybe
> upgrading
> to Diablo will fix this: I haven't dug into what browser comes with
> that.


It's a really old version of Opera, noted, primarily, for its god-
awful js compatibility and performance. :)

--
Ryan Abel
Maemo Community Council chair

hendrik@topoi.pooq.com wrote:
> And the COntacts that ships isn't very useful. I got suckered into
> using it, put street addresses in as AIM addresses of some such, and
> failed to install gpe contacts because I thought I already had it...
> Now I've got both contactses (what is the plural of a plural word,
> anyway?)

My Contacteses, I wants it, gollum, sss :-)

///Peter

>>> As Quim's asked before - what are you using to define "PIM"? The only
>>> PIMish apps which ship with Maemo are Contacts and, arguably, Email.

Acronyms and definitions apart, you can expect a lot of improvement in
this area in Fremantle and Harmattan.

See http://wiki.maemo.org/Task:PIM and make sure your ideas are listed
there.

--
Quim Gil
marketing manager, open source
Maemo Software @ Nokia

On Sun, Nov 23, 2008 at 12:39:25PM +0000, Peter Flynn wrote:
> Andrew Flegg wrote:
> > The built in "Internet Call". It works very well when your wife/son
> > have an N810 at home, and you're working until 11pm practically every
> > night for 3 weeks. Being able to say "night night" to my toddler's the
> > only thing which has kept me (vaguely) sane.
>
> That's a very excellent reason. Unfortunately I don't know anyone else
> who has an N8** (present company excepted :-). If Pidgin and/or aMSN or
> anything else with a widely-used video protocol works in Diablo with the
> camera then that solves the problem.
>
> > As Quim's asked before - what are you using to define "PIM"? The only
> > PIMish apps which ship with Maemo are Contacts and, arguably, Email.

And the COntacts that ships isn't very useful. I got suckered into
using it, put street addresses in as AIM addresses of some such, and
failed to install gpe contacts because I thought I already had it....
Now I've got both contactses (what is the plural of a plural word,
anyway?) and have to move entries from one to the other. Having a
Contacts application already on my N800 has actually harmed usability.

>
> I'm surprised the question has to be asked. PIM apps universally are
> Contacts and Calendar,

Contacts and Calendar definitely have to be linked. I want my
appointments to link to the contact entry so I know where to go, and I
want my COntacts entry to link to the appointments so I can check on
when my next and last dentist visits are/were, cor example.

> but they have to link to each other plus whatever
> you use for Browser, Email, and IM/SIP, which are not themselves PIM
> apps.

I don't have as much need for these other links, but I admit they mioght
be useful.

-- hendrik

Is Fremantle for the N8x0s, or is it for the next-generation
device(s)? I can't find any useful information about it.

On Sun, Nov 23, 2008 at 11:11 PM, Quim Gil <quim.gil@nokia.com> wrote:
>
>
>>>> As Quim's asked before - what are you using to define "PIM"? The only
>>>> PIMish apps which ship with Maemo are Contacts and, arguably, Email.
>
> Acronyms and definitions apart, you can expect a lot of improvement in
> this area in Fremantle and Harmattan.
>
> See http://wiki.maemo.org/Task:PIM and make sure your ideas are listed
> there.
>
> --
> Quim Gil
> marketing manager, open source
> Maemo Software @ Nokia

Hi Quim,

On Mon, 2008-11-24 at 08:11 +0200, Quim Gil wrote:
>
> >>> As Quim's asked before - what are you using to define "PIM"? The only
> >>> PIMish apps which ship with Maemo are Contacts and, arguably, Email.
>
> Acronyms and definitions apart, you can expect a lot of improvement in
> this area in Fremantle and Harmattan.
>
> See http://wiki.maemo.org/Task:PIM and make sure your ideas are listed
> there.

It's sad that Pimlico Suite is not developed actively, although only
rated "bad" at the wiki I think this is the best fitting set of
applications as PIM Suite for Internet Tablets.
- They are designed for devices with small screens
- I would even use them on my desktop as well if more mature
- Pimlico Dates, Contacts, Tasks use Evolution Data Server
- Therefore all that evolution currently is capable of is possible
- Pimlico does mostly need GUI programming, the backend is already there
- There is a basic start of a sync application

Personally I would really like to replace evolution with modest,
contacts, dates and tasks on my desktop. In my opinon the logical way
would be to go with pimlico.

However there is one more important thing that evolution-data-server
needs. The ability to sync, without those weird syncml servers.

I will put my points into the wiki as soon as I can.

Cheers,

Michael

--
Michael Flaig <mflaig@pro-linux.de>
PROLinux.de

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On Monday 24 November 2008 10:59:08 Michael Flaig wrote:
> Hi Quim,
>
> On Mon, 2008-11-24 at 08:11 +0200, Quim Gil wrote:
> > >>> As Quim's asked before - what are you using to define "PIM"? The only
> > >>> PIMish apps which ship with Maemo are Contacts and, arguably, Email.
> >
> > Acronyms and definitions apart, you can expect a lot of improvement in
> > this area in Fremantle and Harmattan.
> >
> > See http://wiki.maemo.org/Task:PIM and make sure your ideas are listed
> > there.
>
> It's sad that Pimlico Suite is not developed actively, although only
> rated "bad" at the wiki I think this is the best fitting set of
> applications as PIM Suite for Internet Tablets.
> - They are designed for devices with small screens

if they are, then someone fumbled badly on the dates app.

last time i tried it (and it have not been updated since) i could move things
on the "month" view (even tho the elements are so small there that i dont know
what i was poking at) and the appointments could become to small to properly
handle "day" view (and that they could be rezised by dragging at the edges
didnt help, so i ended up accidentaly resizing or moving them around when
trying to access the detailed dialog for a entry).

and as it also had issues with timezones (basically ignoring them), i got to
say it was much worse then GPE.

> Personally I would really like to replace evolution with modest,
> contacts, dates and tasks on my desktop. In my opinon the logical way
> would be to go with pimlico.
>

modest, while having a improved ui, was a regression in terms of POP support.
sure i could sign up to gmail and pipe all my other mail thru that to get
IMAP. but you know what? i dont feel like telling google about all my doings
and going online.

POP have served me well so far, and i dont see why it should no do so in the
future, just because the modest devs seem to have a fetish for IMAP and
gmail...