| * Jaffa just doing some last minute paper work. | 15:32 | |
| Jaffa | Welcome all to the June (*cough*) sprint maemo.org sprint meeting | 15:32 |
|---|---|---|
| Jaffa | The agenda is as follows: | 15:32 |
| Jaffa | 1) Discussion of status reports sent to maemo-community on the final statuses of last sprint's tasks: http://wiki.maemo.org/Maemo.org_Sprints/May_09#Tasks | 15:33 |
| Jaffa | 2) Discussion on new sprint process | 15:33 |
| Jaffa | 3) Agreement on next sprint tasks | 15:33 |
| Jaffa | 4) AOB | 15:33 |
| Jaffa | First off, review of the last sprint items. | 15:35 |
| Jaffa | Does anyone have anything to add to the items which are already reported as "done"? | 15:35 |
| Jaffa | For reference 9.03-01, 9.05-03, 9.05-04, 9.05-06, 9.055-07, 9.05-11, 9.05-12 (belonging to qgil, dneary, dneary, X-Fade, X-Fade, qole and jeremiah respectively) | 15:36 |
| X-Fade | For me those were pretty clear tasks. | 15:37 |
| Jaffa | Are any of the other tasks completed, but not marked as such? (qgil, andre, ferenc, GeneralAnitilles, indeyets, jeremiah, daniel, jeremiah, ferenc, feenc, GeneralAntilles, GeneralAnitilles, qole, qole) | 15:38 |
| qole | not mine :( | 15:38 |
| sopi | ferenc: none from my side. | 15:38 |
| andre__ | nope, not at all :-( | 15:38 |
| jeremiah | Kinda. | 15:38 |
| jeremiah | I just want some feedback on how to finish the task that is an 90% | 15:39 |
| jeremiah | That is why it is at 90% | 15:39 |
| Jaffa | jeremiah: The ITP workflow got to 90%... yeah. | 15:39 |
| * JimiDini = indeyets | 15:39 | |
| Jaffa | What *is* ITP? | 15:39 |
| JimiDini | nope. app-karma is still not ready | 15:39 |
| jeremiah | ITP == Intend to Package | 15:39 |
| jeremiah | This allows people to pick up some software and package it for maemo | 15:40 |
| jeremiah | Often this is a good way to get involved if you don't write software | 15:40 |
| sopi | Jeremiah: mark it done, and tell people to file bug reports if they have a problem. | 15:40 |
| Jaffa | jeremiah: Ah, right. I suppose the outstanding bit is deciding on workflow, a beta test period and then production? | 15:40 |
| jeremiah | sopi: Well, I wanted some feedback from the council. | 15:40 |
| jeremiah | That is: Should I only allow an ITP to be filed if we have a valid email or garage user id? | 15:41 |
| sopi | jeremiah: ok, i see. maybe you can mark it done after this meeting then. | 15:41 |
| jeremiah | :) | 15:41 |
| Jaffa | jeremiah: Sounds like it might need to be discussed on maemo-developers; so the last 10% can be a task for this next (shorter) sprint. | 15:41 |
| Jaffa | *** BTW, apologies for the tardiness of this meeting. | 15:42 |
| jeremiah | Sounds good. That works well for me. :) | 15:42 |
| * Jaffa would like to address the "must" tasks which didn't get done. Probably for good reasons, but the idea of a must task only taking up 60% of the available project time is that it's the SHOULD & COULDs which get pushed out when unexpected things happen. | 15:43 | |
| Jaffa | sopi: 9.04-02 "Git for Garage" is at 90% concludes "no time". | 15:44 |
| sopi | yes, that's correct. | 15:44 |
| sopi | it is a cosmetic work, the name of the task is misleading. | 15:44 |
| X-Fade | That task needs to spit up. | 15:45 |
| X-Fade | So one part can be closed. | 15:45 |
| X-Fade | And one part can be set at 0%. | 15:45 |
| X-Fade | Or whatever status it really is at. | 15:45 |
| Jaffa | Agreed. It was already split up into "garage integration" and "UI", but that sounds like it wasn't discrete enough. | 15:45 |
| sopi | git for garage has / had these activities: | 15:46 |
| sopi | 1. enable git on got.maemo.org | 15:46 |
| sopi | 2. setup gitweb | 15:46 |
| sopi | 3. skin gitweb | 15:46 |
| sopi | 4. allow garage projects to pick git as SCM | 15:46 |
| sopi | 5. offer svn->git migration via garage UI | 15:47 |
| sopi | 1, 2, 4 are done. | 15:47 |
| sopi | 3: 0% | 15:47 |
| Jaffa | And 5 is 9.05-01? | 15:48 |
| sopi | 5: 99% see 9.05-01 | 15:48 |
| sopi | yes. | 15:48 |
| sopi | i just did not want to update the task table before this review meeting. | 15:48 |
| Jaffa | OK, so we should have 3 in the backlog (and perhaps pushed in this sprint) | 15:48 |
| qole | I see why you've left the cosmetic stuff to the end. | 15:48 |
| Jaffa | sopi: that's good - the group is supposed to have ownership of the plan, so changing the agreed plan without consensus would be bad ;-) | 15:49 |
| sopi | Jaffa: yes, i thought so too. | 15:49 |
| Jaffa | sopi: What's needed to get 5 from 99% to 100%? Is it just time, or do you need assistance/ | 15:50 |
| sopi | I need time, a few days at most. | 15:50 |
| sopi | and then I will contact those projects who helped me so far. | 15:51 |
| Jaffa | OK, so 3 & 5 go into the backlog; possibly for this 2-week sprint. | 15:51 |
| Jaffa | sopi: thanks | 15:51 |
| sopi | Jaffa: no probs, you are welcome. | 15:51 |
| Jaffa | andre__: GeneralAntilles isn't here, but he had a must in 9.04-05: newstyle for Bugzilla. Status at 80%: "sent to andre, wiating on progress there" | 15:52 |
| Jaffa | Anything to add? (Again, perhaps develop & deploy should've been two separate tasks) | 15:52 |
| andre__ | Jaffa, i am right now on it | 15:52 |
| andre__ | hacking testzilla... | 15:52 |
| X-Fade | andre__: breaking testzilla ;) | 15:52 |
| andre__ | yeah. X-Fade is more correct :-P | 15:52 |
| Jaffa | andre__: OK, cool. Does it look close enough to be considered as just bugs/business-as-usual; and should be closed? | 15:53 |
| andre__ | don't close yet | 15:53 |
| andre__ | can't say yet, must test a bit more | 15:54 |
| X-Fade | deploy skin: this 2 week sprint? | 15:54 |
| X-Fade | Then you can close GA's task? | 15:54 |
| * Jaffa nods | 15:54 | |
| andre__ | yupp | 15:54 |
| Jaffa | OK cool. | 15:54 |
| Jaffa | daniel here? 9.04-09 "Setup SSO testing environment" - "must" - no updates since the task was added | 15:55 |
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| X-Fade | Daniel is in south america atm. | 15:55 |
| X-Fade | 3 week holiday. | 15:55 |
| Jaffa | OK. No more info there then. | 15:55 |
| JimiDini | I believe daniel posted progress-report in some other place.. | 15:56 |
| Jaffa | jeremiah: 9.04-10 test build of diablo on fremantle. 75%? "Still some packages needed to build" | 15:56 |
| Jaffa | JimiDini: There was an update on tmo a while ago, but I'm not going hunting for it. | 15:57 |
| jeremiah | Yeah. This too needs to be broken down into more discreet elements since there is so much involved. | 15:57 |
| jeremiah | But a lot of the packages have been built, more remain. | 15:57 |
| Jaffa | Cool. | 15:58 |
| jeremiah | When one hits a stopper, say a missing lib, one has to track that down, etc. | 15:58 |
| jeremiah | What do you think the best way to handle this is? | 15:58 |
| jeremiah | Just keep forging ahead? | 15:58 |
| jeremiah | I think it can get to 100% at the end of this sprint. | 15:58 |
| Jaffa | At work, we've had something like "must do $X packages", "should do $X*2 packages", "could do $X*3 packages" | 15:59 |
| jeremiah | Or should we atomize it and attack it with a finer grain. | 15:59 |
| jeremiah | Jaffa: Ah - that is actually a good idea. | 15:59 |
| jeremiah | I'll follow that approach. | 15:59 |
| jeremiah | How about I say that 20 more diablo packages will be built and their depends and build problems tracked down | 15:59 |
| jeremiah | as a 'MUST'? | 15:59 |
| Jaffa | jeremiah: Cool. Anything else, or is all the infrastructure in place, and it's just a case of plodding through them now? | 16:00 |
| jeremiah | Jaffa: If I had too, I could send them all to the autobuilder | 16:00 |
| X-Fade | Bonus points for this tedious task btw :) | 16:00 |
| jeremiah | But that is messy and rude to the others who want to build | 16:00 |
| Jaffa | How many are remaining? And how many have been done? (So we can get an idea of how big a job is "20" is ;-)) | 16:00 |
| jeremiah | X-Fade: Well thank you for your help! | 16:00 |
| jeremiah | You did all the libs! | 16:00 |
| jeremiah | that was huge. | 16:00 |
| jeremiah | Jaffa: We have lots of packages - 2,000 or so (help me out here X-Fade) :) | 16:01 |
| jeremiah | But lots are already built | 16:01 |
| X-Fade | I'd guess there are about 200 useful packages to be added still. | 16:01 |
| jeremiah | So maybe 20 is too low. | 16:01 |
| jeremiah | Shall I say 50? | 16:02 |
| Jaffa | Up to you; you're the one committing to it ;-) | 16:02 |
| X-Fade | But we'd need to so some sorting/unique to determine the total. | 16:02 |
| qole | hm, keep 20 as must, if you want 50 put it as should? | 16:02 |
| jeremiah | qole: Yeah, I think something like that might be good. | 16:02 |
| jeremiah | I can commit to 25 - which includes contacting Nokia if there are build issues in the builder, contacting devs if they are missing libs or have perms wrong, etc. | 16:03 |
| qole | remember this is a short sprint, too. | 16:03 |
| Jaffa | qole: good point | 16:03 |
| jeremiah | Sometimes building one package means building all its depends too so . . . | 16:03 |
| jeremiah | 20! | 16:04 |
| Jaffa | jeremiah: excellent. And 40 as a should? | 16:04 |
| jeremiah | Right. | 16:04 |
| jeremiah | :) | 16:04 |
| jeremiah | But, one caveat. | 16:04 |
| jeremiah | The 'reduce number of private repos' backlog task is still important | 16:04 |
| jeremiah | People feel that this is still a problem | 16:05 |
| jeremiah | And it is only going to get worse | 16:05 |
| jeremiah | And we can do something about it | 16:05 |
| jeremiah | I feel more ambivalent. | 16:05 |
| jeremiah | But maybe I should save all this for when we discuss next sprint? | 16:05 |
| * Jaffa nods. | 16:05 | |
| Jaffa | Only other unfinished must is 9.05-05 which is GeneralAntille's newstyle for mxr. Explanation seems obvious "VCS issues and no time to resolve with work". I'll take an action to ask if there's anything anyone can do to help with the VCS issues. | 16:06 |
| Jaffa | Anybody anything else to add on the last sprint? | 16:07 |
| Jaffa | (35 minutes rather than 25; but not bad) | 16:07 |
| JimiDini | well.. would be good to know what kind of issues are those? ;) | 16:07 |
| Jaffa | JimiDini: Indeed, but he's not here :-( | 16:07 |
| Jaffa | Hence my action :) | 16:07 |
| Jaffa | +++ #2 Discussion on sprint process | 16:08 |
| Jaffa | I've changed this from "agreement" as we've had some good stuff come out on -community about it; and don't think we'll do it justice online here in the time available. | 16:08 |
| Jaffa | I'll also note, for the record, that I've certainly appreciated the level of info available going into the sprint meeting with the wiki updates and mailing list posts. | 16:09 |
| Jaffa | Although, it's the wiki I've referred to during the meeting; but I think the mailing list posts have acted as a good reminder | 16:09 |
| * jeremiah concurs | 16:09 | |
| * qole does too | 16:10 | |
| -!- VDVsx [n=valerio@bl5-137-103.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit ["fui :P"] | 16:13 | |
| Jaffa | But I think we've missed a trick in keeping track of MUSTs (in particular) slipping | 16:13 |
| Jaffa | And perhaps the more visibility on the status reporting/making it easier would've helped identify blockages earlier? | 16:14 |
| X-Fade | So it might be good to either get automatic warnings, or somebody to follow up on those at set intervals during the sprint? | 16:14 |
| jeremiah | While I agree, I think part of it can be attributed to the newness of the adoption of the Moscow plan. | 16:14 |
| jeremiah | MUSTs are bit a harder to calculate accurately. | 16:15 |
| Jaffa | jeremiah: a good point | 16:15 |
| qole | (I think you should leave my little coulds out of the next sprint, they're kinda cluttering the page...) | 16:15 |
| jeremiah | Hopefully we'll get better at this and therefor better at managing expectations. | 16:15 |
| Jaffa | jeremiah: indeed; already we can see we're better at splitting things up into discrete things at different levels. | 16:16 |
| jeremiah | Jaffa: Yeah, that has been my problem. I haven't done that well. | 16:16 |
| Jaffa | I'll update my proposal on -community: status reports still on the wiki, but (personalised) reminders every week to anyone who has a task not at 100% (bit of screenscraping or manual secretarial work) | 16:17 |
| X-Fade | scrum master? :) | 16:17 |
| Jaffa | Hell, it's probably even possible to screenscrape the "activity log" to an RSS feed. I admit I'm useless at checking it | 16:17 |
| Jaffa | X-Fade: :) | 16:17 |
| Jaffa | ANything else on process? Have we got a consensus on why we want it? | 16:20 |
| Jaffa | (I really liked that 'managing expectations' article I found; going to use it at work ;-)) | 16:20 |
| jeremiah | I think, to some degree, consensus is going to be hard to come by. | 16:21 |
| jeremiah | But it appears we have a working one at the moment. | 16:22 |
| Jaffa | Pragmatism always wins over idealism in these things :) | 16:22 |
| jeremiah | Indeed. | 16:22 |
| Jaffa | Try to minimise the overhead of process so that it's not resented too much, but is still actually useful to some person for some task. | 16:22 |
| X-Fade | And we need to see if we can still stay ..... agile ;) | 16:22 |
| bergie | we could also use Qaiku or Twitter | 16:23 |
| jeremiah | Yeah, agile seems well suited for software development, less good for system administration and operating system development. | 16:23 |
| jeremiah | bergie: Yeah, I might experiment with Qaiku | 16:23 |
| Jaffa | If nothing else, good progress reports ahead of the meeting reduces the length of a meeting in the middle of a working day | 16:24 |
| qole | jeremiah: 20 minutes ago you mentioned that reducing external repos is still an important task. I think I'd like to discuss this publicly somewhere, I don't think there's a clear consensus about it... | 16:24 |
| sopi | bergie: yes, a qaiku channel for each "major" task. not a bad idea. i would actually prefer that over the wiki. | 16:24 |
| Jaffa | bergie: hash tag or something per task ID - easy updates | 16:24 |
| bergie | or maybe even just a thread per task | 16:24 |
| sopi | bergie: i wonder if mediawiki could integrate snippets from a channel. | 16:24 |
| jeremiah | qole: Yeah, that sounds good. Should we do that on Talk.m.o? | 16:24 |
| bergie | and we could use even "qaikudata" for additional metadata, see http://www.qaiku.com/channels/show/Qaiku-api/view/1de5bfa5c5c83a65bfa11dea402d97edb6074ee74ee/ | 16:25 |
| jeremiah | Yeah, a #maemo.task tag or something | 16:25 |
| bergie | sopi: I think that would be a simple MediaWiki extension (or use an RSS importer extension that probably exists) | 16:25 |
| qole | jeremiah: tmo sounds like a good place for it... | 16:25 |
| jeremiah | :) | 16:26 |
| sopi | what if we try both (qaiku and tmo) approach in this short sprint? | 16:27 |
| jeremiah | I'm all for it. | 16:28 |
| sopi | ok, it would be double "reporting" effort from all, but we could then easier decide what to do in July. | 16:28 |
| X-Fade | sopi: I think they were talking about discussing the repositories task ;) | 16:28 |
| qole | my time is running out... | 16:28 |
| qole | just leave me off the next sprint for now... | 16:29 |
| jeremiah | qole: If you have to go you and I can catch up in the t.m.o thread. | 16:29 |
| Jaffa | qgil suggested the tmo approach a while ago on -community, and the only feedback I got on it as an idea was "hmm, now we're updating at least three places: wiki, task page/Bugzilla, tmo" | 16:31 |
| Jaffa | I suggest we take it to the mailing list. The wiki page is master; and I'll send some reminders out via email during the sprint. The "activity log" is one of three suggested approaches for logging activity; the others being tmo & qaiku. | 16:33 |
| X-Fade | For what I do, I think the wiki is just fine. But if you want to change that, no problem. | 16:33 |
| Jaffa | s/the wiki page/the tasks table on the wiki page/ | 16:33 |
| Jaffa | +++ 3) June mini-sprint tasks | 16:34 |
| Jaffa | Suggested so far: | 16:34 |
| Jaffa | dneary: MUST Set up environment for library.maemo.org API tasks; SHOULD Modify library.gnome.org to use .debs of docs rather than building .tar.gzs; COULD Proof-read HIG; ensure updating library happens on releases | 16:35 |
| Jaffa | qgil: MUST texts for maemo.nokia.com; SHOULD Maemo Summit rough budget; COULD Plan for the OMAP2 acceleration drivers | 16:35 |
| Jaffa | sopi: MUST Gitweb skin; SHOULD Conversion UI | 16:36 |
| Jaffa | jeremiah: MUST 20 more packages from diablo -> fremantle; SHOULD 40 more packages | 16:36 |
| Jaffa | andre: ??? Complete bugzilla newstyle | 16:36 |
| X-Fade | MUST: Work on package promotion/repository management/community qa interface. SHOULD and COULD too. | 16:36 |
| X-Fade | And MUST finish that thing for the next sprint. | 16:37 |
| andre__ | Jaffa: we had that one already a few minutes ago. right now working on it :) | 16:37 |
| andre__ | yepp. i agree. MUST. | 16:37 |
| Jaffa | andre__: I'm summarising in this section what we said earlier so it's easier for me to do the table ;-) | 16:37 |
| Jaffa | X-Fade: Sorry, the same task is SHOULD & COULD? | 16:37 |
| andre__ | okay. i should up and should not multitask in that case :-P | 16:37 |
| andre__ | er shut | 16:37 |
| X-Fade | Because it is more than 2 weeks. | 16:37 |
| X-Fade | Jaffa: Yeah, fremantle is coming and we really need to get this done. | 16:38 |
| Jaffa | X-Fade: OK. Bit of a process breakage, but what you're saying is that this is priority #1 and it's a *proper* MUST | 16:38 |
| X-Fade | So 100% priority for me. | 16:38 |
| Jaffa | As in, late nights if it's not done ;-) | 16:38 |
| X-Fade | Jaffa: I already started on it 100% this week.. | 16:39 |
| X-Fade | Quite an amount of code already.. | 16:39 |
| Jaffa | Anyone want to carry over their tasks from the last sprint? Probably things like patchsets (andre), karma for apps (JimiDini) need splitting up? | 16:40 |
| andre__ | yes, i want | 16:40 |
| Jaffa | Oh, I also missed jeremiah's COULD(?) Complete ITP process | 16:40 |
| JimiDini | Jaffa: well yes. we can split up app-karma into 1) getting stats (done) 2) implementing karma-formula (not done) | 16:41 |
| jeremiah | Yeah, that sounds good. I suspect that will be done by the next sprint without problem. | 16:42 |
| Jaffa | JimiDini: Is there a decision on what the karma-formula *is*? | 16:42 |
| Jaffa | jeremiah: cool | 16:42 |
| Jaffa | JimiDini: If not, that sounds like a different task (at a higher priority than implementing it ;-)) | 16:42 |
| JimiDini | Jaffa: not yet. there's my proposal and then we need to test it and fine-tune until we like it | 16:42 |
| Jaffa | Karma for apps has been kicking around for a couple of sprints, so it suggests it needs restructuring slightly. | 16:43 |
| X-Fade | Jaffa: But now there was actual code progress on it. | 16:43 |
| X-Fade | Jaffa: As the gathering of stats for this karma was the major part. | 16:43 |
| JimiDini | "implementation" itself would be trivial, and fine-tuning formula would take some time | 16:43 |
| Jaffa | X-Fade: ok | 16:43 |
| Jaffa | So is it still one task? Is it in the sprint? At what priority (given the 2 weeks available)? | 16:44 |
| JimiDini | X-Fade: did the cron start working properly? (app-karma stats) | 16:45 |
| X-Fade | JimiDini: No. | 16:45 |
| JimiDini | ok... | 16:45 |
| JimiDini | Jaffa: let's try it with "should" marker | 16:46 |
| Jaffa | JimiDini: OK | 16:47 |
| Jaffa | Anyone else anything they want to push? | 16:47 |
| qole | ok going now... as I said, leave me off the next sprint | 16:47 |
| -!- qole [n=qole@d207-6-250-238.bchsia.telus.net] has quit ["Leaving"] | 16:47 | |
| Jaffa | qole: thanks for your input | 16:47 |
| Stskeeps | from mer: http://wiki.maemo.org/Mer/Proposals/Vendor_Hardware_Repositories | 16:48 |
| Stskeeps | basically implementing the flowchart | 16:48 |
| Stskeeps | in order to push being able to properly support nokia hw - as per long discussions as well as at cph meet | 16:49 |
| Jaffa | Stskeeps: is it a task for this 2-week sprint to liaise with the appropriate people (e.g. X-Fade) on the maemo.org specifics of it? So that a series of concrete tasks can be put into the next sprint? | 16:49 |
| Stskeeps | yes, i think so | 16:50 |
| X-Fade | Jaffa: We've discussed this at the Danish weekend. | 16:51 |
| X-Fade | And got preliminary OKs, but now it has to be done ;) | 16:51 |
| Jaffa | Indeed, but that flowchart looks a little big to be done in a single task when it has interdependencies between people | 16:51 |
| X-Fade | Yes, there are multiple parties in this. | 16:53 |
| Jaffa | Hence the suggestion of a task to identify all the sub-tasks :) | 16:53 |
| X-Fade | Well, I can't commit on carrying it. But will help where I can. | 16:54 |
| Stskeeps | it's mostly a matter of web implementation - what needs to work is basically the serial/MAC check -> EULA check -> show a unique token and a list of downloads you now can do | 16:54 |
| Stskeeps | *nod* | 16:54 |
| X-Fade | Stskeeps: That code is available. | 16:54 |
| Jaffa | Stskeeps: are you going to own it? | 16:54 |
| Stskeeps | i can commit to working with people to get this divided up into bite size chunks i guess | 16:54 |
| Stskeeps | X-Fade: k - then that's a matter of adapting it to mer in general then. anything open (excepting the wlan mac dbs) | 16:55 |
| Stskeeps | ? | 16:55 |
| Stskeeps | because then i can help modifying it to fit our purposes | 16:55 |
| X-Fade | Stskeeps: Doesn't have to be open, as it will run on Nokia's part? | 16:55 |
| X-Fade | Stskeeps: But anyway, the code is only a few lines. | 16:55 |
| X-Fade | Stskeeps: So I can get that setup for you. | 16:56 |
| Stskeeps | X-Fade: yeah - that's a discussion of who delegates the tokens and so on, we just need to get a demo up and running so we can show to nokia this is how it would be handled :) | 16:56 |
| Stskeeps | k | 16:56 |
| X-Fade | Stskeeps: When Marcell is back, we can get this in place. | 16:56 |
| Stskeeps | *nod* | 16:56 |
| Jaffa | Cool. | 16:56 |
| Jaffa | Anything else from anyone? | 16:56 |
| X-Fade | Stskeeps: But that leaves the acual packages of course ;) | 16:56 |
| Jaffa | +++ 4) AOB | 16:57 |
| Jaffa | Anything? Nothing from me. | 16:57 |
| Jaffa | Still a long meeting, but feels a bit more concrete than previous ones. | 16:57 |
| Jaffa | So thank you, all. | 16:57 |
| Stskeeps | X-Fade: yeah, we'll deal with that over the summer i guess :) | 16:57 |
| jeremiah | Cheers! | 16:58 |
| sopi | thank you. bye! | 16:59 |
| Jaffa | Thanks all. | 16:59 |
| Jaffa | Has someone a log they can send me, asap? | 16:59 |
| Jaffa | If not, I'll do a copy & paste marathon from irssi | 16:59 |
| X-Fade | Jaffa: I'll upload it. | 17:00 |
| X-Fade | In the regular place. | 17:00 |
| Jaffa | X-Fade: ta muchly | 17:00 |
| Jaffa | Thanks all! | 17:00 |
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