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| Stskeeps | well, let's start the meeting then :) | 21:02 |
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| Stskeeps | i'd like to welcome all of you, and thank you for showing up and participating in this meeting. | 21:02 |
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| Stskeeps | so, basically, to start, i'd like to know which areas (and maybe even what teams) each of you would like to participate in (one or more), and what interests you have in Mer. for me personally, i'm a bit all-around but mostly focusing on architecture (rescue capabilities), and foundation (the software beneath the UI). so, i'd like to hear what your individual interests are. | 21:05 |
| Meizirkki | Testing out everything, and now i am trying to make theme for Mer... Is konttoris theme maker good for it? | 21:06 |
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| lcuk | well, from my perspective - im interested in the UI, specifically prom a performance and interaction perspective (Should i have said my name and how long ive been coming to these meetings?) | 21:06 |
| b-man | I likel messing around with different desktop env's | 21:06 |
| lardman | well my interests are system optimisation, which thus far has meant DSP hacking, and trying to work out how the IVA and PowerVR might be made to work; in general my interests are reasonably low level arch stuff | 21:06 |
| Stskeeps | Meizirkki: yeah, - uses same theme model | 21:08 |
| Meizirkki | ok | 21:08 |
| qwerty12_N800 | I'd be interested in bringing Maemo apps to Mer. I already have the sdk set up (always a plus ;)), I have debian packaging experience, I can mess around with autotools and I know basics of hildonisation. | 21:08 |
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| lcuk | lardman :) red-shirt, get back to the engine room :P | 21:08 |
| lardman | :p | 21:08 |
| FrankB_TX | So far i've only done a few hildon apps but i do rtos drivers for omap3 at work | 21:08 |
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| Stskeeps | and welcome to the recently joined - we're currently stating which interests we have in Mer (and maybe teams you'd like to participate in) | 21:09 |
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| Stskeeps | to get an overview of what abilities different people have :) | 21:09 |
| lardman | Once we're done with the intros, I'd be interested to hear an overview of the goals of the project, what direction it's heading in, and to what extent the release of Fremantle will tie in with these. | 21:10 |
| Stskeeps | *nod* | 21:10 |
| Stskeeps | well. to start on that a little bit (if anyone would still like to intro, feel free to) | 21:12 |
| Stskeeps | we've been discussing the blueprint a little bit before (http://wiki.maemo.org/Mer_Blueprint_New ) - which has some high level goals | 21:13 |
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| Stskeeps | my point of view is - mer is a way to put the tablet platform (from software point of view) into the hands of the community and the tablet users. | 21:15 |
| b-man | same here :) | 21:16 |
| qwerty12_N800 | Newer libraries etc is a selling point for me. | 21:16 |
| GAN8001 | The question lardman is going to ask is: "Is Fremantle compatibility an important part of that goal?" ;) | 21:16 |
| lardman | GAN8001: ;) | 21:16 |
| GAN8001 | Or, more forward-thinking: Maemo compatibility in general | 21:17 |
| GAN8001 | (assuming there aren't significant direction changes) | 21:17 |
| Stskeeps | yes, fremantle component inclusion is a goal - i personally can't promise Clutter and such, but on API level (hildon and all the other frameworks), it is meant to be maemo compatible | 21:18 |
| Stskeeps | and help highlight issues in the maemo platform as well | 21:18 |
| Stskeeps | right now - our components are from fremantle | 21:18 |
| lardman | To state my reasoning - Maemo is a pretty up-to-date "distro" and is including new and cool technologies, I see little reason to break compatibility, at least while the maemo components can still run on the device and are not getting old and stale (which was, for example, a good reason to break from the Sharp-supplied distro for the Zaurus machines) | 21:19 |
| lardman | Stskeeps: cool, sounds good | 21:19 |
| GAN8001 | Does anybody object to using the maemo.org Sprints procedure? | 21:20 |
| Stskeeps | ( http://wiki.maemo.org/Maemo.org_Sprints ) | 21:20 |
| lardman | seems fair, will need to have a page setup? | 21:21 |
| * GAN8001 was gonna do that now if there were no objections. | 21:22 | |
| Stskeeps | no objections from me either | 21:22 |
| Stskeeps | lardman: the idea is to follow fremantle packages as they get released by nokia, with possibly some patches if need be, but no breaking of API ideally. there should be a two-way contribution - nokia invests a lot of money in developing the platform, and we should contribute to our "upstream" as well | 21:22 |
| lardman | Stskeeps: sounds ideal to me | 21:23 |
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| Stskeeps | there are some changes in terms of architecture, that deals with being closer to upstream (ubuntu/debian), to make it easier for developers to adopt the platform | 21:24 |
| lcuk | Stskeeps, agreed, if we find a performance bottleneck running on older systems and build a patch we offer directly back to nokia | 21:24 |
| Stskeeps | and the work done in this area, i hope, will benefit the maemo platform as well | 21:24 |
| lcuk | that way the primary users who won't be running the optional OS will also see community driven benefits | 21:24 |
| lardman | Stskeeps: what sorts of changes re moving closer to ubuntu/debian? | 21:25 |
| Stskeeps | so, this is my idea of Mer, - the community branch of the Maemo platform, but with some paradigm changes that would be hard for let's say Nokia to adopt at this point | 21:25 |
| Stskeeps | lardman: as in that we are actually running a very minimal ubuntu, with everything on top | 21:26 |
| Stskeeps | it's actually working pretty nicely so far | 21:26 |
| Stskeeps | without problems in portability | 21:26 |
| Stskeeps | or size | 21:26 |
| lardman | Stskeeps: ok, but what are the differences? are we talking kernel versions, bme, dsme, etc,? | 21:27 |
| lardman | (not just for me, for everyone listening) | 21:27 |
| Stskeeps | we're speaking userland mostly. regarding DSME and MCE, they're already on the way out the door at Nokia, replaced by OHM | 21:27 |
| Stskeeps | which is hardware-agnostic power management | 21:28 |
| Stskeeps | the difference between maemo as it is now, and our direction, is like the page says, stop seeing the tablets as strictly under-powered embedded systems, and see them for what they really are: powerful, power-efficient, economical handheld computers. | 21:28 |
| Stskeeps | that's the philosophical difference.. in terms of userland, this means, full gnu coreutils, shell, etc | 21:29 |
| Stskeeps | which actually doesn't harm performance, - 11mb flash for easy porting, is worth spending | 21:29 |
| lardman | what sort of flash space use do we see with this? | 21:29 |
| lardman | ok | 21:30 |
| XTL | But no users, cron, X, daemons..? | 21:30 |
| GAN8001 | Well, I think the important think to keep in mind is that we'll be hobbling ourselves if we break compatibility. | 21:30 |
| GAN8001 | s/think/thing/ | 21:30 |
| lcuk | here here, i dev on tablet and think its half assed | 21:30 |
| lardman | GAN8001: quite | 21:30 |
| Stskeeps | XTL: we already use xorg + xserver-xorg-video-omapfb | 21:30 |
| Stskeeps | same direction nokia is moving in | 21:30 |
| lcuk | is it a different discussion to why cant we make a safe package which puts extra on | 21:30 |
| GAN8001 | The only thing that makes us viable is Nokia shipping tablets and making Maemo. | 21:31 |
| lardman | lcuk: yes, that is OT | 21:31 |
| Stskeeps | another paradigm shift is that for the ease of our activities, mer won't be restricted to specific hardware. | 21:32 |
| GAN8001 | Until we either get to the point where we can stand on our own two feet or Nokia picks up everything we're moving towards, then we have to keep compatibility first and foremost. | 21:32 |
| lardman | Stskeeps, GAN8001: in terms of the GUI/X server I think we can have some flexibility, as long as we don't stop ourselves from running the Diablo (or hopefully) Fremantle packages | 21:32 |
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| Stskeeps | and i agree, compatibility is a must | 21:32 |
| GAN8001 | Developers aren't going to waste time shipping software for a niche mobile distro. | 21:32 |
| Stskeeps | if we can't have numpty physics or maemo mapper running, it's not worth it, obviously :) | 21:32 |
| lardman | but we need them running without a recompile too | 21:32 |
| olivluca | what about using unmodified debian sw? | 21:32 |
| Stskeeps | olivluca: well, ubuntu arm is building their entire repo. ideally, it should be a matter of hildonizing things to make it look pretty, but i hope there's efforts like "easy debian" that makes it possible to show non-hildon apps sanely in the UI | 21:33 |
| lardman | olivluca: I'd vote against that, we should align with something (and I'd prefer maemo to debian armel) | 21:33 |
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| GAN8001 | "Pure Debian" doesn't work for mobile devices. | 21:34 |
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| XTL | Probably not, even though it'll flex a fair bit | 21:35 |
| lardman | Stskeeps: re not restricted to specific hw, what other hw are we thinking at this time? | 21:35 |
| Stskeeps | lardman: well. the idea is that if we get a new piece of tablet to support, it will be a matter of writing the OHM plugins/getting an x driver/HAL drivers, and we have a running Mer platform on it. | 21:36 |
| * lardman worries that "embedded" platforms really do benefit from specific optimisations, and that we shouldn't just ignore these and go the lowest common denominator route | 21:36 | |
| qwerty12_N800 | ^ | 21:36 |
| GAN8001 | http://wiki.maemo.org/Mer_Sprints/January_08 | 21:36 |
| lcuk | unless the lowest common denominator is infact lower than everything else | 21:36 |
| Stskeeps | agreed - but the specific optimizations will be in libraries and such | 21:36 |
| Stskeeps | so we can provide HWCAP (like ubuntu will) for specific library optimizations | 21:36 |
| lardman | lcuk: that's where lower relates to battery life ;) | 21:36 |
| lardman | Stskeeps: ok, seems reasonable | 21:37 |
| lcuk | lardman :) thats a sideeffect not unnoticed :) | 21:37 |
| lcuk | kotczarny always pushes me to work in batterysave mode | 21:38 |
| Stskeeps | let's say the whole open source hw tablet business booms for some reason (pandora?), and people want to see Mer on their tablet. or on their netbook. it's a matter of bootstrapping it on it, adapting to the hw with OHM/HAL and such, and then we support this | 21:38 |
| GAN8001 | TI more than Pandora. :P | 21:39 |
| lardman | lcuk: it really depends on your audience, for a distro most people will (IMHO) want good battery life and accept some latency for that; while you just want really quick graphics and AC power :) | 21:39 |
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| Stskeeps | and we have same goal of maemo in terms of power efficiency - it's not just another desktop distribution port | 21:39 |
| lcuk | not at all lardman, i want to use my tablet all day out and about | 21:40 |
| Stskeeps | if people want to temporarily switch to a DE for some hours and use battery on that, they can | 21:40 |
| lardman | lcuk: I know, just taking it to the extreme | 21:40 |
| GAN8001 | Alright, I think we're OK on direction for now, how about organization? | 21:41 |
| GAN8001 | Does anybody have any input for the web tools? | 21:41 |
| Stskeeps | got one thing left, GAN8001, if it's okay | 21:41 |
| lardman | fine, so it looks like we want to get to the same place, Fremantle running on our devices, and once Fremantle is gone, and if we can't retain support any longer (Nokia goes bust :D, need lots more hw caps), then we keep a useful and working/up-to-date distro on our devices | 21:41 |
| GAN8001 | Stskeeps, sorry, your meeting, just prodding. :P | 21:41 |
| Stskeeps | so, your turn - what are your goals for Mer? and what would you like to see the goals be? since it's primarily been from my point of view. | 21:41 |
| Stskeeps | we seem to agree, i'd just like to hear the fringe views too :) | 21:41 |
| Stskeeps | i mean, i might be wrong in being against it -not- being just patching nokia firmware images | 21:42 |
| Stskeeps | er, s/-not-// | 21:42 |
| lardman | I quite simply want to be able to hack on a Diablo-on-steroids (i.e. Diablo GUI + Fremantle backend + user supplied front-end apps where needed) or Fremantle (if we can get the OpenGL working) distro for the omap2 (and 1 devices) | 21:42 |
| GAN8001 | Well, I think positioning as a distro for tablets devices (in particular, ARM devices with good battery life) is important. | 21:43 |
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| GAN8001 | As we really don't have anything in the vein that manages to also push a strong UI. | 21:43 |
| GAN8001 | So we leverage Nokia's strengths with Ubuntu/Debians strengths to make a kickass mobile distro that's not crippled by corporate nonsense. | 21:44 |
| Stskeeps | this road with "reconstructing" maemo, is not the easiest, but it will probably be worth the while | 21:46 |
| Stskeeps | and we have a huge amount of packages, and OSS software, to work with. | 21:46 |
| Stskeeps | and an unprecented invitation from nokia accompanying this | 21:47 |
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| lardman | so to organisation, tasks, building, etc.? | 21:48 |
| Stskeeps | so. to just tell you people what we -do- have right now in Mer. we have a repository with built packages - enough to run hildon desktop on a xorg with xserver-xorg-video-omapfb driver. we have 770 port in progress, n8x0, and i386 is compiled. it boots on tablets currently | 21:48 |
| Stskeeps | it boots with my patches to bootmenu. we're currently a pinning repository (higher priority) on top of ubuntu jaunty arm repository. | 21:49 |
| GAN8001 | Summarizing my own ideal goals: 1. Strong mobile Linux distro that leverages Maemo's strengths. 2. Providing an example to Nokia of the direction that Maemo should (well, can) go in. (My biggest desire is to see them "invalidate" us by improving Maemo) | 21:49 |
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| Stskeeps | we have an imager, which can build images of Mer, for different targets (debootstrap, apt-get in chroot, etc). And just this afternoon, we have a working SB1 sdk going | 21:49 |
| lardman | Stskeeps: ubuntu jaunty is what version of libc/gcc/kernel? | 21:49 |
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| qwerty12_N800 | Stskeeps, will we be able to use manual framebuffer refreshes? | 21:50 |
| qwerty12_N800 | instead of it being set to auto 24/7 | 21:50 |
| Stskeeps | lardman: glibc 2.9, gcc 4.3.2, kernel it runs fine on Diablo, but we have work in the queue (solca's stuff) to have more updated kernels | 21:50 |
| Stskeeps | qwerty12_N800: i hope that will be possible eventually. we use kulve&zuh's omapfb atm | 21:51 |
| Stskeeps | and nokia might come up with a xorg driver as well | 21:51 |
| qwerty12_N800 | cool | 21:51 |
| * lardman notes that Fremantle looks like glibc 2.5.1, is 2.9.x backwards compatible? | 21:51 | |
| suihkulokki | Are you more interested in making a whole mobile distro, or just work on getting a smooth mobile (ie. thumbable) UI for tablets ? | 21:52 |
| Stskeeps | suihkulokki: focus is in both areas i guess. we aren't making everything from scratch obviously. we have a load of good stuff from Maemo | 21:52 |
| lardman | suihkulokki: for me the distro (i.e. the underlying technology) is far more interesting than the gui | 21:53 |
| lcuk | for me the gui (i.e the overlaying technology) is far more interesting than the distro | 21:53 |
| GAN8001 | I'm interested in taking Maemo's UI and bringing it to more hardware and providing a more open an extensible distro for Nokia tablets. | 21:53 |
| suihkulokki | trouble is, there is several mobile distros already - but no good free ui | 21:53 |
| * lcuk perks | 21:54 | |
| lardman | which is ideal, different people, different areas, etc | 21:54 |
| Stskeeps | suihkulokki: i'd say that maemo's UI is pretty open already. and the principles of power saving employed well understood | 21:55 |
| GAN8001 | Nokia tablet owners get options, non-tablet owners get Hildon. | 21:55 |
| lardman | I think it would certainly be interesting for people to be able to fork off maemo (for example) to try their own pet ideas, but still keeping something hopefully compatible with the Nokia releases as the mainline | 21:55 |
| Stskeeps | yes, like implementing new paradigms to show the feasibility | 21:55 |
| * lardman must pop out; the one thing I wanted to say for later on is that the setup procedure (for the build tools) needs to be well documented - I have no clue how the build-root stuff works. Also, we should (as soon as the licence allows) distribute images so people don't have to build their own; and have a repo | 21:57 | |
| Stskeeps | it's also about giving the community a voice in the OS and the UI, and the power to do it convincingly | 21:57 |
| Stskeeps | lardman: *nod* i agree, and that's stuff to be solved | 21:57 |
| GAN8001 | lardman, dependent on Nokia releasing the fiasco-builder. | 21:57 |
| lardman | I'll be back in a bit and see what's been discussed | 21:57 |
| lardman | GAN8001: they say they will, we'll have to prod and ask how far along they are ;) | 21:58 |
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| Stskeeps | so. organization and tasks | 21:59 |
| GAN8001 | Web tools? | 21:59 |
| Stskeeps | yeah | 21:59 |
| GAN8001 | Do we want to just go ahead and open a Garage project? | 22:00 |
| Stskeeps | as a basis i have suggested that we use one garage project per team. i would (personally) like to see use of wiki, maybe inclusion of microblogging RSS feeds in wiki pages, and using the usual Sprint web tools. | 22:00 |
| Stskeeps | i'm still holding out on how the git tools are done in maemo.org | 22:01 |
| GAN8001 | Stskeeps, are you ready to move to repository.maemo.org? | 22:01 |
| Stskeeps | http://wiki.maemo.org/Talk:Git_For_Garage#Per-user_git_repositories | 22:01 |
| Stskeeps | GAN8001: it should be fairly simple, but i will need to talk to the people involved obviously, at maemo.org | 22:01 |
| Stskeeps | and we need to agree on what we call the path :) /community, repository.mer.maemo.org, or whatever :) | 22:02 |
| GAN8001 | repository.maemo.org/community | 22:02 |
| GAN8001 | No DNS | 22:02 |
| Stskeeps | *nod* | 22:02 |
| GAN8001 | Anyway, it's just a matter of poking X-Fade to set it up. | 22:02 |
| GAN8001 | Recall, we are the community. :) | 22:02 |
| GAN8001 | It's not like we need to go to Nokia and ask permission. :P | 22:03 |
| Stskeeps | it was my hope that the foundation team head will take that as a task and help out with it | 22:03 |
| Stskeeps | bootstrapping task: Mer Foundation team: Set up repository, decide on initial release codename. Decide on repository location and work with the hosters (repository.mer.maemo.org, repository.maemo.org/community?). Work with maemo.org on this one. Web-based assistant for package upload and upload rights (base on Admin of team projects?). Establish if we are just pinning, or taking in the packages we need from Ubuntu from stability? Or are we ... | 22:03 |
| Stskeeps | ... "just" pinning for the first alpha, and not pinning in next? | 22:03 |
| Stskeeps | but for bootstrapping purposes i could simply move the first alpha there. | 22:03 |
| GAN8001 | Whatever makes sense to you. | 22:04 |
| GAN8001 | I'm wondering if it's early to try to push teams. | 22:05 |
| GAN8001 | It seems like they're broken down a bit too small for the number of people we've got involved for now. | 22:05 |
| Stskeeps | perhaps - we need some people to commit to some of the initial work (repository, sdk, project tools) | 22:05 |
| Stskeeps | repository is basically the act of getting in touch with x-fade & co, and getting /community set up, and looking at how we can extend extras uploads and such tools, to package uploading by committers. | 22:07 |
| Stskeeps | and i think i can commit to that task for now | 22:07 |
| Stskeeps | (if noone else wants to?) | 22:08 |
| Stskeeps | SDK is - take the rootstrap we have right now, the associated toolchain, wrap it up in a nice script, and work with maemo.org about package builders. | 22:09 |
| Stskeeps | anyone who would be willing to commit to this? | 22:10 |
| solca | I was able to run Mer the other day, pretty amazing IMO, so I was thinking about Ubuntu and it could be possible to make Mer work as a subset of Ubuntu? | 22:11 |
| solca | so if we want just Ubuntu will be very easy | 22:11 |
| solca | and then add Mer on top? | 22:11 |
| solca | or it will be always separated from Ubuntu packages? | 22:12 |
| solca | and what happens if one package exists in both Ubuntu and Fremantle? | 22:13 |
| Stskeeps | currently we pin and override the ubuntu version | 22:13 |
| Stskeeps | if we need to shape it for mobile purposes (some dependancies may not be needed) etc | 22:13 |
| Stskeeps | regarding SDK i'll of course assist with any information i know :) | 22:15 |
| GAN8001 | I think we need an easy demo image to draw in people. | 22:15 |
| Stskeeps | *nod* | 22:15 |
| Stskeeps | that is in progress | 22:15 |
| GAN8001 | Something that we can untar, flash, install | 22:15 |
| GAN8001 | whatever | 22:15 |
| Stskeeps | yeah, - might be a little premature right now to start a big thing maybe | 22:16 |
| GAN8001 | Fair enough. | 22:16 |
| GAN8001 | Whatever you think is wise. ;) | 22:16 |
| Stskeeps | mm | 22:16 |
| GAN8001 | Do we want to shoot for the first Sprint meeting sometime after the first of the year? | 22:16 |
| Stskeeps | i think around same time in a month or so could be useful | 22:17 |
| GAN8001 | Well, do we want to stagger them 2 weeks after the maemo.org ones? | 22:17 |
| GAN8001 | The issue with that is that each sprint overlaps two months. | 22:17 |
| GAN8001 | Or is it just a temporary thing for January? | 22:18 |
| lcuk | "periods" | 22:18 |
| Stskeeps | when is next maemo.org sprint meeting? | 22:18 |
| GAN8001 | Stskeeps, not scheduled yet | 22:18 |
| GAN8001 | But they happen sometime in the first week of each month | 22:18 |
| Stskeeps | *nod* i think it may be useful to schedule the day before so we can put input to the maemo.org sprints? | 22:19 |
| GAN8001 | Sounds fine | 22:19 |
| Stskeeps | at that point we should have demo image, initial sdk and such going, which may help attract more. | 22:19 |
| Stskeeps | so, the blueprint. are there comments on direction and how it's shaped, and if you think this direction could be feasible? | 22:22 |
| Stskeeps | we basically want to get to a point where we have a diablo on steroids, first off | 22:23 |
| Stskeeps | so, result of this meeting so far: there's a lot of different areas that people are interested in, next sprint meeting will be the day before the maemo.org one, i'll work with maemo.org on the repository and such, working on web tools for the organization | 22:28 |
| Stskeeps | and we'll need a demo image and sdk to get things really started, and to help attract more participants. | 22:29 |
| -!- lardman|afk is now known as lardman | 22:30 | |
| * lardman has just read backlog | 22:30 | |
| lardman | can I suggest we post this to the maemo-devel list, to get some extra eyes on it? | 22:30 |
| lardman | or has there already been something on there? | 22:30 |
| Stskeeps | well, sent the invitation to the meeting there and reference to blueprint | 22:31 |
| FrankB_TX | At least post a link to the log | 22:31 |
| lardman | With regards to allocating people to teams, it might be worth establishing some sort of tasks-to-be-done list and see if people want to sign up against it on the wiki, etc | 22:31 |
| Stskeeps | *nod* | 22:32 |
| Stskeeps | sounds like a good suggestion - though we'll know more on direction at next sprint, i guess | 22:33 |
| Stskeeps | and specifically what needs to be done | 22:34 |
| -!- b-man [n=b-man@pool-71-124-127-27.chi01.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] | 22:34 | |
| Stskeeps | well then - anyone has anything else? i'll get the log put up online, send a notification to m-d with it, and we'll get started on the activities needed to establish project tools. | 22:37 |
| lardman | sounds good and good work Stskeeps :) | 22:38 |
| Stskeeps | - thanks for participating :) we'll see what comes of this. think we have an interesting possibility with this project, for the community. | 22:38 |
| -!- yerga [n=yerga@87.223.214.207] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] | 22:40 | |
| -!- yerga [n=yerga@87.223.214.207] has joined #maemo-meeting | 22:41 | |
| Stskeeps | initial log of meeting on http://bsd.tspre.org/~stskeeps/mer-bootstrapping-20081214.txt | 22:44 |
| -!- Stskeeps changed the topic of #maemo-meeting to: https://wiki.maemo.org/Maemo.org_Sprints/November_08 | https://wiki.maemo.org/Maemo.org_Sprints/December_08 | Bugs: LOW - http://tinyurl.com/4vycjm MEDIUM - http://tinyurl.com/547kot HIGH - http://tinyurl.com/4ujq55 | 23:05 | |
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