| -!- andre___ [n=andre@f053155098.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #maemo-meeting | 20:01 | |
| @GeneralAntilles | Hey, andre___. | 20:04 |
|---|---|---|
| andre___ | hej hej | 20:05 |
| -!- bergie [n=bergie@cs181192153.pp.htv.fi] has joined #maemo-meeting | 20:07 | |
| @GeneralAntilles | Hey, bergie made it! :) | 20:08 |
| bergie | still not happy about the timing ;-) | 20:08 |
| -!- lcuk is now known as lcuk_afk | 20:08 | |
| @GeneralAntilles | Yeah | 20:08 |
| bergie | but here anyway | 20:08 |
| @GeneralAntilles | Damn near impossible to get people from Russia to Japan together all in one place at a time that's convenient for everybody. ;) | 20:09 |
| bergie | just got back from a little excursion... http://wiki.xkcd.com/geohashing/2008-09-27_60_24 | 20:09 |
| @GeneralAntilles | Looks fun | 20:10 |
| -!- Jaffa2 [n=andrew@87.194.200.127] has joined #maemo-meeting | 20:54 | |
| * Jaffa2 decided to use a separate IRC client, cos console-based clients aren't best for not breaking my multi-room brain | 20:54 | |
| @GeneralAntilles | Clone! | 20:55 |
| * Jaffa2 is his own evil twin | 20:56 | |
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| -!- dneary [n=dneary@mne69-9-88-163-116-163.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #maemo-meeting | 20:57 | |
| @GeneralAntilles | Hey, dneary. | 20:58 |
| dneary | Hi | 20:58 |
| dneary | I just sent a mail with notes from the maemo.org presentation in Berlin to the list | 20:58 |
| dneary | I haven't had anything to eat yet (9pm here, kids just in bed) so I'm going to take 15 minutes to do that... | 20:58 |
| Jaffa2 | Very handy it was too | 20:58 |
| dneary | But I promise I will catch up when I get back! | 20:59 |
| -!- melmoth [n=melmoth@sd-2175.dedibox.fr] has joined #maemo-meeting | 20:59 | |
| * melmoth waves at the crowd | 20:59 | |
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| -!- qwerty12_N800 [n=faheem@78-86-35-231.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has joined #maemo-meeting | 21:01 | |
| @GeneralAntilles | https://wiki.maemo.org/Improving_maemo.org_agenda | 21:01 |
| -!- lardman [n=simon@78.149.11.13] has joined #maemo-meeting | 21:01 | |
| @GeneralAntilles | crap | 21:01 |
| @GeneralAntilles | Phone call | 21:01 |
| @GeneralAntilles | 2 minutes | 21:02 |
| lardman | likely story | 21:02 |
| lardman | ;) | 21:02 |
| -!- bundyo [n=bundyo@141.78.pppoe.intech.bg] has joined #maemo-meeting | 21:02 | |
| bundyo | hi guys | 21:02 |
| Jaffa2 | Goodo, we've got the majority of the council here. That's good. | 21:03 |
| @GeneralAntilles | OK, sorry about that. | 21:05 |
| @GeneralAntilles | I figured tim was going to make it. | 21:06 |
| @GeneralAntilles | Wanted to discuss his Community pages. | 21:06 |
| @GeneralAntilles | Anyway, let's run through the list and see what we need to discuss. | 21:06 |
| @GeneralAntilles | General stuff first | 21:06 |
| Jaffa2 | Before we start - you refed that on the agenda. Got a link? | 21:06 |
| @GeneralAntilles | https://wiki.maemo.org/Improving_maemo.org_agenda | 21:07 |
| @GeneralAntilles | Oh | 21:07 |
| @GeneralAntilles | Hang on. | 21:07 |
| Jaffa2 | Sorry, to tim's community stuff | 21:07 |
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| @GeneralAntilles | https://wiki.maemo.org/Task:Improving_maemo.org/community | 21:07 |
| Jaffa2 | thanks | 21:07 |
| crashanddie | already started? | 21:07 |
| @GeneralAntilles | Just getting started | 21:07 |
| @GeneralAntilles | Haven't missed anything. | 21:07 |
| crashanddie | k | 21:08 |
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| @GeneralAntilles | So, general stuff. | 21:08 |
| @GeneralAntilles | Any word on the server upgrades, X-Fade? | 21:08 |
| @GeneralAntilles | Perhaps not. | 21:09 |
| X-Fade | GeneralAntilles: The dns needs to be switched over. | 21:10 |
| @GeneralAntilles | Any eta on that? | 21:10 |
| X-Fade | Hopefully monday or tuesday. | 21:11 |
| @GeneralAntilles | OK | 21:11 |
| @GeneralAntilles | For the whole site we need to look at a few things. Branding and consistency (titles all need to be capitalize, consistent usage of terms, etc) are two main issues which are fairly straightforward to fix. | 21:11 |
| RST38h | any idea why all https: accesses take minutes to complete? | 21:11 |
| X-Fade | We might need a short downtime again, but let's see. | 21:11 |
| X-Fade | GeneralAntilles: Maybe add a style guide? | 21:11 |
| X-Fade | RST38h: http is cached, https is not. | 21:12 |
| @GeneralAntilles | Yeah, that sounds like a plan. | 21:12 |
| RST38h | so, this is the actual performance we are seeing...mhrm | 21:12 |
| @GeneralAntilles | I'll look into putting together some sort of branding guide that's slightly more technical than the existing page on the wiki. | 21:12 |
| @GeneralAntilles | RST38h, dns hasn't been moved to the new cluster. | 21:13 |
| RST38h | General: it is easier done with includes | 21:13 |
| RST38h | General: i.e. branding guide is good, but a few standard include files in html with header/footer/etc are better | 21:13 |
| @GeneralAntilles | Well, this is general usage stuff. | 21:13 |
| @GeneralAntilles | Like maemo -> Maemo | 21:13 |
| X-Fade | RST38h: It is more about styling of Titles etc. | 21:14 |
| @GeneralAntilles | in the content | 21:14 |
| RST38h | oh..ok | 21:14 |
| @GeneralAntilles | Did anybody happen to find anybody from Nokia legal to poke during the Summit? | 21:14 |
| lcuk_afk | header+footer involves runnin round changing everywhere and retesting - changin as noticed to identified documented spec is simpler and better | 21:14 |
| -!- lcuk_afk is now known as lcuk | 21:14 | |
| @GeneralAntilles | We need to look at the footer for all pages | 21:15 |
| @GeneralAntilles | and the trademark usage guidelines. | 21:15 |
| bergie | RST38h: there are some software upgrades for the server in roadmap too... Midgard Ragnaroek next month should give some incremental benefits, and Midgard Vinland in spring will be faster by several orders of magnitude | 21:15 |
| X-Fade | GeneralAntilles: There is work inside Nokia going on to update the trademark thing. | 21:15 |
| X-Fade | GeneralAntilles: I guess we will see more about that this week. | 21:16 |
| @GeneralAntilles | Alright, as long as its on the radar for somebody. | 21:16 |
| RST38h | bergie: >40sec request turnaround times indicate that it may be something else, not the hardware | 21:16 |
| dneary | Hi all | 21:16 |
| @GeneralAntilles | Welcome back, dneary. | 21:16 |
| dneary | Have eaten | 21:16 |
| dneary | Feel slightly better | 21:16 |
| X-Fade | RST38h: Load > 20 does ;) | 21:16 |
| RST38h | bergie: something like a badly written sql query somewhere | 21:16 |
| @GeneralAntilles | Good, let's talk about dneary's proposal. https://wiki.maemo.org/Task:Improving_maemo.org/proposal | 21:16 |
| bergie | RST38h: it is both... the old Midgard we run is *very* heavy, and the server badly overloaded by Midgard, MediaWiki etc | 21:17 |
| lardman | RST38h: what are you having troubles with, works fine for me | 21:17 |
| X-Fade | RST38h: We have discussed this to death. Wait until new hardware ;) | 21:17 |
| dneary | But am running tomorrow morning & am tired :( | 21:17 |
| jott | especially the wiki states "(c) nokia" which sounds wrong to me. it should clearly marked as fdl or cc. | 21:17 |
| lardman | +1 | 21:17 |
| X-Fade | jott: Yes, true. | 21:17 |
| RST38h | lardman: anything, when I am logged in... but let us wait and see | 21:17 |
| X-Fade | But I think that is just me, editing the footer ;) | 21:17 |
| dneary | jott: Copyright and licence are two separate issues | 21:17 |
| lardman | dneary: we've not assigned copyright though | 21:18 |
| Jaffa2 | dneary: Either way, the footer for any page on the wiki shouldn't say (c) Nokia. | 21:18 |
| dneary | X-Fade: You'll need permission from the copyright holder :) | 21:19 |
| jott | dneary: well as long as it is not stated otherwise also the content is (c) nokia. | 21:19 |
| dneary | lardman: Indeed - in the wiki there's different issues | 21:19 |
| Jaffa2 | And there's a strong argument that the only pages under *.maemo.org which should say (c) Nokia in future are things like API docs & reference material for which Nokia employees are the main contributors. | 21:19 |
| X-Fade | dneary: Yes, and I guess maemo.org isn't something we can assign ownership to? | 21:19 |
| @GeneralAntilles | ^ | 21:20 |
| @GeneralAntilles | Who is going to own the trademark? | 21:20 |
| dneary | X-Fade: There's no problem having several copyright holders on content | 21:20 |
| RST38h | going to? | 21:20 |
| dneary | As lardman says, no-one has been asked to assign copyright | 21:20 |
| crashanddie | I'll get the trademark for maemo.org | 21:20 |
| dneary | In the wiki, I thini t's simply an issue of removing the (c) Nokia | 21:20 |
| dneary | For maemo.org more generally, there's a longer process to go through | 21:20 |
| dneary | And it's not something we're going to get to the bottom of tonight. Let's move on | 21:21 |
| Jaffa2 | dneary: really? then timsamoff's stuff for the community pages will require a (c) assignment. | 21:21 |
| lardman | realistically there's no problem with it being (C) Nokia, though a copy-share sort of licence would fit better | 21:21 |
| X-Fade | Sure, let's setup a discussion with Nokia legal and see what we can do? | 21:21 |
| @GeneralAntilles | ^ | 21:21 |
| lcuk | yes, the (C) is not a problem as long as it is under a permissive license | 21:22 |
| @GeneralAntilles | It's not something that's gonna be pounded out right now. | 21:22 |
| @GeneralAntilles | Moving on. | 21:22 |
| dneary | Jaffa2: It's the first case I know of someone not getting paid by Nokia submitting content for maemo.org - indeed, the question needs to be asked | 21:22 |
| @GeneralAntilles | dneary's proposal: https://wiki.maemo.org/Task:Improving_maemo.org/proposal | 21:22 |
| dneary | But the will of the Maemo group is clear - maemo.org is a community resource | 21:22 |
| @GeneralAntilles | I like everything about it. | 21:22 |
| dneary | If there are legal obstacles, we'll need to identify & remove them | 21:22 |
| Jaffa2 | Who is going to take the action of contacting Nokia legal? Presumably dneary or X-Fade have that contact route? | 21:22 |
| @GeneralAntilles | I removed gronmayer from the list of URLs a few weeks ago. | 21:22 |
| lardman | RST38h: I take it back, rather slow now :) | 21:22 |
| dneary | Jaffa2: Quim | 21:22 |
| Jaffa2 | OK. Who's taking minutes? ;-) | 21:22 |
| dneary | Jaffa2: At least, Quim is my Nokia contact for all that kind of really annoying stuff | 21:23 |
| dneary | Jaffa2: xchat-gnome | 21:23 |
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| @GeneralAntilles | Council vote: who thinks Jaffa2 should be the secretary? :P | 21:23 |
| dneary | OK - first point in the agenda. General maemo.org | 21:23 |
| * Jaffa2 meant who's going to tell Quim he has that specific action then? | 21:23 | |
| * Jaffa2 will :-) | 21:24 | |
| dneary | I will | 21:24 |
| dneary | "consistency throughout the whole site" - to my mind a superficial issue | 21:24 |
| Myrtti | _o/ hello folks - thought might be good if I'm here too... | 21:24 |
| @GeneralAntilles | Specifically, http://maemo.org/news | 21:24 |
| @GeneralAntilles | Like the sidebar there | 21:24 |
| @GeneralAntilles | There are some lower-cased holdovers from the lowercase maemo times. | 21:25 |
| lardman | dneary: superficial, but makes an impression | 21:25 |
| @GeneralAntilles | Hi, Myrtti. :) | 21:25 |
| dneary | "bugzilla and the wiki to be promoted to top-level navigation" - I agree they should be in the top 2 levels, but *only* if we don't label the links "bugzilla" and "wiki" | 21:25 |
| @GeneralAntilles | Why is wiki a problem? | 21:25 |
| RST38h | dneary: hehe, that was my idea too | 21:25 |
| @GeneralAntilles | Everybody knows what a wiki is. | 21:25 |
| lardman | people might not know what a wiki is! | 21:25 |
| RST38h | People do not know what wiki is | 21:25 |
| dneary | It should be "report a problem" or "community-contributed documentation" | 21:25 |
| Jaffa2 | wiki seems fine to me; agree on "Bugzilla" | 21:25 |
| @GeneralAntilles | Ugh | 21:25 |
| lardman | dneary: agreed | 21:25 |
| @GeneralAntilles | They can't possibly be that long. | 21:25 |
| RST38h | General: They don't. really. | 21:26 |
| Jaffa2 | Agreed. | 21:26 |
| Jaffa2 | 99% of Internet users have heard of "wikipedia". | 21:26 |
| dneary | GeneralAntilles: Suggest something shorter that doesn't include "wiki" | 21:26 |
| @GeneralAntilles | My votes with wiki | 21:26 |
| RST38h | I called Bugzilla "Bug Reports" and wiki "Documentation" | 21:26 |
| @GeneralAntilles | People know what a wiki is. | 21:26 |
| lardman | I say "Documentation" | 21:26 |
| RST38h | Are these two names fine enough? | 21:26 |
| Jaffa2 | RST38h: Except the wiki doesn't contain *all* documentation, so it can't be that. | 21:26 |
| @GeneralAntilles | Bugzilla we can just call "Bugs" | 21:26 |
| dneary | Jaffa2: I see 2 or 3 use-cases concerned by this: users with problems finding a treasure trove of contributed information | 21:26 |
| RST38h | Jaffa: I have also got Reference! :) | 21:27 |
| lardman | who cares that it's a wiki, it's what's in there that's important | 21:27 |
| dneary | Developers looking for community hints & tips | 21:27 |
| bundyo | People know what wiki is and are scared from that word ;) | 21:27 |
| Jaffa2 | RST38h: Ah :-) | 21:27 |
| lardman | like saying "book" but meaning "instructions" | 21:27 |
| lcuk | lardman, +1 | 21:27 |
| RST38h | Jaffa: Do check out the proposed layout | 21:27 |
| dneary | And "help improve our community docs site" as a link on the "get involved" page | 21:27 |
| RST38h | Maybe use "Library" for wiki? | 21:27 |
| jott | lardman: but "wiki" encourages collaboration | 21:27 |
| @GeneralAntilles | We already have a perfectly good word for what we're linking to in the vocabulary. | 21:27 |
| RST38h | jott: but only if you know what it is :) | 21:27 |
| lardman | RST38h: documentation has fewer meanings in the computer world | 21:28 |
| Jaffa2 | "Library", "Reference" and "Documentation" are all too similar. How do I know if a tutorial on porting an application is "Reference", "Library" or "Doc[s]" | 21:28 |
| @GeneralAntilles | It's "wiki" | 21:28 |
| jott | i think "wiki" is fine. especially since the tablets have the "Internet tablet" target group. *those* should know what a wiki is ... | 21:28 |
| dneary | RST38h: Library has a very specific meaning for a large chunk of our target audience | 21:28 |
| RST38h | dneary: I hope they do not go there to get drunk... | 21:28 |
| jott | i mean that you grandmother does not know what a wiki is is another story. but it's unlikely she ever will have a tablet | 21:28 |
| lardman | jott: People will expect to be able to collaborate, call it wiki in the link from the "how to contribute" pages perhaps | 21:28 |
| Myrtti | I seem to have arrived at the correct moment | 21:28 |
| dneary | I am just going to keep on disagreeing with everyone who thinks that "wiki" is fine | 21:28 |
| Jaffa2 | There's a strong argument for emphasising the type of stuff people'll find there, "Community Wiki" (although everything on maemo.org is community oriented) | 21:28 |
| * RST38h agrees with dneary | 21:28 | |
| Jaffa2 | dneary: And I'm very strongly of the belief that "Community-contributed documentation" is a sub-title or a description; not a title. | 21:29 |
| RST38h | Please, use documentation or Library or RTFM or something | 21:29 |
| dneary | As I said, there are 3 separate things here - it's a way to get involved, a source of troubleshooting tips, and a repository of developer documentation | 21:29 |
| Jaffa2 | The real problem here is that we've got two bits of documentation: the static stuff (API, refs, tutorials) and the community-contributed stuff. | 21:29 |
| lardman | dneary: I agree with you, wiki is not good enough, see my comment above about book vs instructions | 21:29 |
| X-Fade | Why not use documentation and under documentation we have 1 official docs, 2 community contributed docs ? | 21:29 |
| RST38h | Jaffa: Ok, there is a usage case difference | 21:29 |
| dneary | lardman: Thanks for the support :) | 21:29 |
| RST38h | Jaffa: APIs, refs, tutorials all go under Development | 21:30 |
| Jaffa2 | And there's no real way anybody in any of the use cases is going to know which one the stuff they need is in. | 21:30 |
| lardman | X-Fade: I'd assumed that was the plan anyway :) | 21:30 |
| RST38h | Jaffa: But Wiki (i.e. Documentation) is the top level link fo rnormal users | 21:30 |
| Jaffa2 | RST38h: So where does wiki.maemo.org/Uploading_to_Extras go? | 21:30 |
| dneary | Jaffa2: Good point | 21:30 |
| lcuk | big red "Help!" button :) | 21:30 |
| RST38h | Jaffa: linked from development | 21:30 |
| Myrtti | hi bergie | 21:30 |
| RST38h | Jaffa: or can be reached via Documentation | 21:30 |
| bergie | hi Myrtti | 21:30 |
| dneary | Jaffa2: Search function for documentation must include both maemo.org/documentation and wiki.maemo.org | 21:30 |
| Jaffa2 | Perhaps the major bits of "refernece" documentation go in the wiki; and that becomes the community collaborated entry point to *all* documentation. | 21:30 |
| X-Fade | Jaffa2: and linked from /downloads ;) | 21:30 |
| Jaffa2 | s/go in/linked from/ | 21:31 |
| dneary | Jaffa2: Right now, getting the reference docs in the wiki is painful & not feasible | 21:31 |
| Myrtti | dneary: *cough* | 21:31 |
| dneary | But there is work going on internally on this subject which I know nothing about | 21:31 |
| RST38h | Jaffa: It is ok to have links wherever they are relevant | 21:31 |
| Jaffa2 | dneary: Sorry, I meant from a user PoV - they *get* to them through the wiki | 21:31 |
| lcuk | lol | 21:31 |
| Myrtti | dneary: _o/ hi | 21:31 |
| dneary | Myrtti: I'm unaware of anything the official docs team is doing (I'm not under NDA, remember ;) ) | 21:32 |
| dneary | Hi Myrtti | 21:32 |
| Myrtti | :-D | 21:32 |
| RST38h | Jaffa: But the main link structure clearly divides wiki docs an development references and tutorials | 21:32 |
| * Myrtti has a mediawiki installed on her homeserver for testing purposes... | 21:32 | |
| RST38h | s/an/and | 21:33 |
| dneary | Jaffa2: I agree with you that there is a fundamental problem when someone comes to maemo.org looking for documentation related to a problem that they're having, there are 3 places they might go, and there's currently no way to tell which one might actually help with the problem | 21:33 |
| Jaffa2 | RST38h: I don't think that helps with the use cases dneary's outlined, unless the static content ends up being updated to link to new wiki pages. | 21:33 |
| Myrtti | that's true ^ I've misnavigated several times | 21:33 |
| RST38h | Jaffa: yes, it has to get updated somewhow | 21:33 |
| Jaffa2 | The simpler case, instead of modifying the *static*(er) content is to have the main entry point be the wiki, which is more dynamic and rapidly changed as new development resources in the wiki get created. | 21:33 |
| lardman | Jaffa2: +1 | 21:34 |
| dneary | Jaffa2, RST38h: I think the answer is to make sure that search on the site searches all the places an answer might be | 21:34 |
| bundyo | What goes where should be clearly visible right from the front page | 21:34 |
| dneary | You're not going to browse a knowledge database | 21:34 |
| RST38h | dneary <-- correct | 21:34 |
| RST38h | And you can link to particular search rather than wiki | 21:34 |
| acydlord_aao | i think a good case reference on entry point would be the way opensuse has their page layout | 21:35 |
| bundyo | opensuse just redesigned btw | 21:35 |
| Jaffa2 | dneary: I think you overestimate search on a limited domain. I've "done" search engines for Intranets of thousands of pages, and they *never* meet user's expectations: because the Internet gives false expectations. | 21:35 |
| bundyo | also good | 21:35 |
| lardman | Jaffa2: Google you mean? ;) | 21:35 |
| acydlord_aao | i was referring to their redesigned landing page :) | 21:36 |
| dneary | Jaffa2: I think we also need to address the indexing of Google - for example, it pains me to continue to see old wiki pages from 2006 still turn up very high in Google pagerank, their updated versions don't figure on page 1 or 2 in mediawiki | 21:36 |
| Jaffa2 | lardman: Google over a wide range of pages. If a page exists on the Internet with the information you want, Google'll find it. There's no guarantee it'll be under a particular domain - especially in a limited knowledge domain. | 21:36 |
| dneary | And I don't know why | 21:36 |
| Jaffa2 | dneary: GeneralAntilles has that later on in the agenda :) | 21:36 |
| dneary | Anyway - feels like we're losing time on something again when there's bigger fish to fry | 21:37 |
| * Jaffa2 mixed two usages of "domain" there. One DNS, the other subject matter. | 21:37 | |
| dneary | How 'bout we fry those first? | 21:37 |
| RST38h | are they eadible? | 21:37 |
| Jaffa2 | Isn't this the biggest fish? How do we organise the site to provide the information to the users in the use cases you outline? | 21:37 |
| -!- qgi1 [n=qgil@a88-112-27-165.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #maemo-meeting | 21:37 | |
| dneary | Jaffa2: Whether we link to "wiki" or "community documentation" is not important | 21:37 |
| lardman | fashionably late? ;) | 21:37 |
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| Myrtti | hi qgi1 | 21:38 |
| qgi1 | er... no good exscuse, really | 21:38 |
| Jaffa2 | dneary: If we link to *one* documentation or three is, however (I think) | 21:38 |
| dneary | Improving search is, to my mind, a big fish, though | 21:38 |
| dneary | Hi qgil | 21:38 |
| @GeneralAntilles | Hey, qgi1. | 21:38 |
| lardman | hi qgi1 | 21:38 |
| Jaffa2 | I think trying to improve search to solve navigation issues is a hiding to nothing. | 21:38 |
| lcuk | hey quim | 21:38 |
| bundyo | hi qgil | 21:38 |
| Jaffa2 | It's important, but if users can't understand a site's structure, it's of limited use. | 21:38 |
| lardman | Jaffa2: link to one page then to the 3 or however many from there | 21:38 |
| RST38h | How about we come up with a list of things that have to be on the front page? | 21:38 |
| qgi1 | hi, please continue :) | 21:39 |
| @GeneralAntilles | Well, I think we can agree that the wiki and bugzilla need to be top-level navigation choices. | 21:39 |
| dneary | Jaffa2: Then to you, the site structure is the biggest thing | 21:39 |
| RST38h | So far I have got: Introduction, Downloads, Community, Documentation Bug Reports Development, news | 21:39 |
| @GeneralAntilles | How we pound out the specifics of naming and documentation organization may need to be pounded out later. | 21:39 |
| lardman | GeneralAntilles: but perhaps not with those names :) | 21:39 |
| RST38h | 7 areas | 21:40 |
| dneary | I'd go further - I think we need to rethink the front page, the other major portals that haven't recently been reviewed. Level 0 and 1. | 21:40 |
| bundyo | about google indexing the old pages - isn't google's sitemap xml just for that? | 21:40 |
| dneary | And only a very small amount of time in Level 2 | 21:40 |
| dneary | GeneralAntilles: I don't think we do agree on that | 21:40 |
| dneary | I think we're pushing too much to the front page if we do that | 21:41 |
| dneary | We need: Downloads | 21:41 |
| @GeneralAntilles | The wiki is where most of the good information that most people want is ending up. | 21:41 |
| dneary | We need: Get involved | 21:41 |
| RST38h | dneary: Aside from these links, I would just have news and events at the front page | 21:41 |
| @GeneralAntilles | It shouldn't be buried. | 21:41 |
| dneary | We need: Have a problem? | 21:41 |
| RST38h | Why do we need "get involved"? | 21:41 |
| qgi1 | (sorry if anything I say was said before) | 21:41 |
| lardman | GeneralAntilles: yes, but we need some intermediate pages to point people to the pages they are interested in | 21:41 |
| dneary | We need: Developers area | 21:41 |
| Jaffa2 | RST38h: I think it's a synonym for "Community" | 21:41 |
| dneary | Something like that | 21:42 |
| bundyo | because some people want to get involved? :) | 21:42 |
| qgi1 | what about assuming that maemo.org home is for newbies | 21:42 |
| RST38h | Jaffa: Then let us have Community! | 21:42 |
| RST38h | bundyo: People generally do not want to get involved | 21:42 |
| crashanddie | qgi1, that's bull, actually | 21:42 |
| qgi1 | and then maemo.org/community is the default page for the usual suspects | 21:42 |
| RST38h | Then want help :) | 21:42 |
| lardman | RST38h: getting involved is a really big thing, we need to push it | 21:42 |
| dneary | "Get involved" will include thinks like helping with the wiki, bugzilla, developing applications (tutorials and the like), directing people to ITt | 21:42 |
| bundyo | RST38h: generally yes, but there are some | 21:42 |
| RST38h | lardman: We may, but not under such a straightforward name :) | 21:42 |
| dneary | We probably need "News" | 21:42 |
| @GeneralAntilles | Depends on what newbies we're talking about. I figure most of the average consumer types are better served by a nokia.com domain. | 21:42 |
| bundyo | there are some 30% with IE6 too :) | 21:42 |
| crashanddie | We should not make a distinction between new users and regulars. Everyone should have access to the same website, and to the same documentation/references/help as anyone else. | 21:43 |
| dneary | And I don't think that we must have "Introduction" as a top-level link, necessarily | 21:43 |
| qgi1 | sure, "newbies" in the Maemo community | 21:43 |
| Jaffa2 | GeneralAntilles: Probably whatever's going to be done with maemo.nokia.com (pointing out that additional apps can be installed (links to maemo.org/downloads/ and/or the highlighted apps) | 21:43 |
| RST38h | dneary: I had Introduction as a placeholder for the main page link | 21:43 |
| crashanddie | If I want to check how to use the microphone, I want to be able to go to maemo.org, and find my way in 5 clicks max. | 21:43 |
| qgi1 | = contributors, developers, people willing to find other people... | 21:43 |
| RST38h | dneary: I think there should still be SOME main page | 21:43 |
| RST38h | That explains what the hell this site is about | 21:43 |
| Jaffa2 | crashanddie: Indeed. It seems I'm *always* a newbie when trying to find some API ref ;-) Other times, I'm not so much a newbie. | 21:44 |
| crashanddie | Jaffa2, yup | 21:44 |
| RST38h | Btw, why are you looking at opensuse, etc for examples? | 21:44 |
| bundyo | why not? | 21:44 |
| RST38h | Why not look directly at iGoogle? iGoogle does good job of keeping relevant stuff upfront | 21:44 |
| dneary | What I'm trying to do is to strip down to the minimum - if I arrive at the front page, what questions do I need answered? | 21:44 |
| Jaffa2 | RST38h: The page which explains *what* maemo.org is, shouldn't be the front page. It just adds clutter if you know. A one line summary, and a link to /introduciton/ is sufficient. | 21:45 |
| bundyo | RST38h: tell me about it | 21:45 |
| lardman | dneary: "About", "Screenshots" ;) | 21:45 |
| Jaffa2 | RST38h: iGoogle's customised, and isn't a portal to the same kind of site that maemo.org is. | 21:45 |
| dneary | If I know what I'm looking for, and what I'm looking for is community news, I already go directly to planet.maemo.org or whatevet | 21:45 |
| JamieBennett | Jaffa2: agreeded | 21:45 |
| RST38h | Jaffa: Well, I do suggest that we have news at the starting page (see design) | 21:45 |
| dneary | lardman: Maybe... | 21:45 |
| qgi1 | see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Main_Page vs http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Community_portal | 21:45 |
| qgi1 | or http://www.mozilla.org/ vs http://www.mozilla.org/community/ | 21:45 |
| RST38h | Jaffa: It iscustomizable all right, but it IS a portal | 21:46 |
| dneary | lardman: When do people arrive at the front page? Clicking a link from a review or an article, Google search results (when looking for what?), ... | 21:46 |
| qgi1 | these two projects are two of the most successful in terms of community in action | 21:46 |
| qgi1 | I would copy with pride unless we have something more brilliant than thm | 21:46 |
| dneary | Actually, it'd be nice to know what the top search results that currently lead to http://maemo.org are | 21:46 |
| lardman | or seeing one of the T-shirts we're all wearing now... | 21:46 |
| RST38h | qgil: they are not necessarily the same projects as Maemo | 21:46 |
| qgi1 | also noticeable http://www.ubuntu.com/ vs http://www.ubuntu.com/community | 21:47 |
| RST38h | qgil: so it may not be wise to copy them letter to letter | 21:47 |
| RST38h | dneary: Anybody running Google Analytics on it? | 21:47 |
| lcuk | +1 ubuntu example | 21:47 |
| RST38h | If not, you should | 21:47 |
| lardman | I think we should lower the entry bar, no strange names (e.g. wiki), have a link to an "about"/"into" page with details of what maemo.org is all about,,etc | 21:47 |
| dneary | RST38h: Don't know | 21:47 |
| qgi1 | well, Ubuntu is an opn OS and Maemo too | 21:47 |
| dneary | bergie: Do you have any stats to share on this kind of stuff? | 21:48 |
| Jaffa2 | qgi1: A good point; certainly people who arrive at the front page "new" are going to need more guiding to what they want. But the use cases don't help identify what areas of content they /will/ want, because they're end-users looking for additional apps not pushed via maemo.nokia.com; they're new developers looking to get started or they're existing developers looking for references etc. The latter case can learn where stuff is, but it shouldn't be a | 21:48 |
| RST38h | Ubuntu is a generic linux distro with a lot of competitors though | 21:48 |
| X-Fade | dneary: I can get the top urls based on server stats. | 21:48 |
| RST38h | Maemo is tied to Nokia hardware | 21:48 |
| bergie | dneary: unfortunately no... but I think most visitors to maemo.org are "repeat offenders", so they want to see what is new first | 21:48 |
| dneary | X-Fade: I know that I have gotten search result stats from other sites with just webalizer | 21:49 |
| bergie | so as long as the intro pages are prominently available for newbies... | 21:49 |
| RST38h | No competitors there, narrower set of goals but much higher requirements for compliance with these goals | 21:49 |
| X-Fade | dneary: I have just that. | 21:49 |
| lardman | bergie: agreed | 21:49 |
| dneary | bergie: It'd be nice to know, rather than think :) | 21:49 |
| qgi1 | surely every case is different but... not that different at the end | 21:49 |
| bundyo | Jaffa: not all people arrive new on the front page, some are arriving there with specific needs/searches in mind :) | 21:49 |
| bergie | dneary: site stats are behind Nokia, I think | 21:49 |
| Jaffa2 | bundyo: agreed 100% | 21:49 |
| qgi1 | download stuff, get documentation, get human support, get involved in the community... | 21:50 |
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| lardman | bundyo: in which case you click the "developers" link or "documentation" link and away you go | 21:50 |
| qgi1 | know about the product | 21:50 |
| X-Fade | bergie: I have access to them. Will try to see if I can get some info out of them. | 21:50 |
| * Myrtti drifts to doing the dishes... | 21:50 | |
| bundyo | lardman: every time? | 21:50 |
| Jaffa2 | It's hard. That's why simple, clean designs; minimum clutter; clearly defined segments are the right way to go, I think. | 21:50 |
| lcuk | +1 | 21:50 |
| bundyo | lardman: why not get over it? :) | 21:50 |
| RST38h | Jaffa: Header + Top Menu + News | 21:50 |
| lardman | bundyo: that's the way it is atm, you can always bookmark the level two page | 21:50 |
| dneary | qgi1: You & I think alike | 21:51 |
| RST38h | Jaffa: And *no columns*. Columns waste space. | 21:51 |
| lardman | bundyo: I actually like passing through the news page to see if anything is happening | 21:51 |
| Jaffa2 | And bookmarks can help people who come back regularly to the same place. | 21:51 |
| lardman | s/news/main page with news | 21:51 |
| bundyo | lardman: why not bookmarking only one specific user customizable "homepage" and voila everything is already there | 21:51 |
| bundyo | ? | 21:51 |
| X-Fade | I think we need a 'What's happening' with latest news, conversations on mailinglists, new applications etc etc... | 21:52 |
| lardman | bundyo: I don't know much about how that would be achieved, but fair enough | 21:52 |
| X-Fade | Something to show that the community is doing stufff. | 21:52 |
| lardman | X-Fade: agreed, perhaps pull out threads from the ml too | 21:52 |
| dneary | I said "Downloads", "Get involved", "Have a problem?", "Developers corner", and maybe "News" | 21:52 |
| bundyo | lardman: not necessarily the front page, mind you | 21:52 |
| lardman | dneary: sounds good to me | 21:53 |
| RST38h | Use single words | 21:53 |
| RST38h | The longer those titles are, the more difficult they are to recognize | 21:53 |
| dneary | RST38h: Depends how you're structuring the page | 21:53 |
| sp3000 | yeah, the latest in flames isn't necesasrily front page material ;) | 21:53 |
| @GeneralAntilles | Ha | 21:53 |
| dneary | If the words are the content, you're sorted | 21:53 |
| lardman | sp3000: damn! | 21:53 |
| Jaffa2 | dneary: terminology's a bit cutesy ("Developers' Corner") | 21:53 |
| bergie | I've got no preferences on whether intro or news should be first... I use RSS anyway ;-) | 21:53 |
| @GeneralAntilles | sp3000, can we automagically exclude threads Mr. Haury has participated in? ;) | 21:53 |
| dneary | If you want that to be a top-level menu, and have a bunch of other content in the page, then it's trickier | 21:53 |
| lardman | s/corner/dark corner ? | 21:53 |
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| dneary | Jaffa2: Ideas are what's important now, not the words used to express them | 21:54 |
| * RST38h votes for news first (but do provide link to the intro) | 21:54 | |
| qgi1 | (Intro embeddd in the home) + Downloads + Support + Community + Developers | 21:54 |
| Jaffa2 | dneary: agreed, but RST38h was previously concerned about "Get involved" vs. "Community" | 21:54 |
| bundyo | lardman: about passing through the news page - why not the user customizes to see a panel with the latest news in his page...? when newbies arrive the site will be the same for all, but after that let them tweak what they see to their liking... :) | 21:54 |
| dneary | Maybe a "what is Maemo?" link, but I wouldn't put it very prominently | 21:54 |
| qgi1 | (news embedded in the home too) | 21:54 |
| * RST38h would not use "Get Involved" because it is not the page for Red cross or some other charity | 21:55 | |
| qgi1 | let's not be obsessed about wording now | 21:55 |
| @GeneralAntilles | bundyo, dynamic user-customizable pages sound like a lot of damn work. | 21:55 |
| Jaffa2 | Where's support go? Bugzilla? But there's support in the wiki, and - hopefully - the developer documentation. | 21:55 |
| dneary | Jaffa2: I would say if you already are involved, I'd be surprised if you were going through the front page | 21:55 |
| andre___ | dneary: i'd prefer "Report bugs" to "Have a problem?" - bad experience from gnome, people asking for help on app settings and stuff like that... | 21:55 |
| RST38h | Jaffa: There is no support at maemo.org | 21:55 |
| bundyo | GeneralAntilles: Yes, but only once :) | 21:55 |
| dneary | And if you are, you probably know what you're looking for | 21:55 |
| RST38h | Jaffa: So there should not be a link titled Support | 21:55 |
| dneary | andre___: I don't think step 1 is report a bug | 21:55 |
| lardman | Jaffa2: yes, support to a sub page that points to the wiki & bugzilla, irc, itt, etc. | 21:55 |
| RST38h | Jaffa: Just have Community and Report Bug | 21:55 |
| Jaffa2 | RST38h: that was a second point I had in mind. There's no offical support via maemo.org, but that's terminology | 21:55 |
| dneary | I think step 1 is "search the wiki and ITt" | 21:55 |
| bundyo | GeneralAntilles: You can't please everyone, let them please themselves :) | 21:56 |
| dneary | Then if you don't find an answer, "report a bug" | 21:56 |
| @GeneralAntilles | bundyo, feel free to implement that system yourself, then. ;) | 21:56 |
| qgi1 | the mailing lists are continuous support + wiki faq to com | 21:56 |
| qgi1 | irc is support too | 21:56 |
| RST38h | Jaffa: yes, but you do not want to make people think they are gonna get official support | 21:56 |
| Jaffa2 | I think the categories should be based on topic, not underlying technology. (So what lardman just said). | 21:56 |
| RST38h | mailing lists = Community | 21:56 |
| andre___ | dneary, ah, ok | 21:56 |
| qgi1 | nothing in maemo.org is "official" for that matter... | 21:56 |
| RST38h | wiki = Documentation | 21:56 |
| dneary | I know when all you have is a happer, everything looks like a nail, but not everyone who is coming to the site with a problem wants to report a bug - some of them actually want to fix their problem ;) | 21:56 |
| Jaffa2 | RST38h: agreed - but I only want to clarify the terminology people are using. | 21:56 |
| bundyo | GeneralAntilles: :) if only i had enough time :) | 21:57 |
| dneary | RST38h: I think that's a fairly restricted view | 21:57 |
| RST38h | dneary: Community link then! | 21:57 |
| Jaffa2 | RST38h: community is more than mailing lists. | 21:57 |
| dneary | There's definitely overlap | 21:57 |
| bundyo | the small mockup took me 3 weeks | 21:57 |
| RST38h | Jaffa: I did not say it is limited to mailing lists :) | 21:57 |
| dneary | Sometimes mailing list archive = troubleshooting, documentation | 21:57 |
| Jaffa2 | RST38h: then be more precise. | 21:57 |
| RST38h | Jaffa: Community = mailing lists + itt + irc | 21:57 |
| RST38h | Jaffa: + wherever else people talk | 21:57 |
| qgi1 | don't think what we have now, think what the visitors will be looking for | 21:57 |
| dneary | sometimes wiki = reference documentation, sometimes it means troubleshooting | 21:57 |
| * lardman still thinks "getting involved" makes more sense than "community" | 21:57 | |
| * dneary too | 21:58 | |
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| RST38h | lardman: poor schmuck trying to unbrick his n810 will not be looking to get involved | 21:58 |
| lardman | RST38h: no, he will go to the help page | 21:58 |
| dneary | bundyo: Which small mock-up? I missed the link... sorry | 21:58 |
| qgi1 | "community" can be in the navigation and "get involved" a nice block in a column | 21:58 |
| lardman | RST38h: more than one front end link can point to the same backend data | 21:58 |
| RST38h | lardman: yes, but we have not yet discussed the help page. afaik, there is none | 21:59 |
| Jaffa2 | How about this structure (THESE ARE NOT SUGGESTED NAMES): * Meta-data (about, introduction, etc.); * Documentation (will contain links to API docs, HOWTO guides, etc.); * Getting involved (pointers to IRC, mailing lists, etc.); * News; * Downloads (applications, add-ons, whatever) | 21:59 |
| sp3000 | Jaffa2: but ⊃ isn't on the keyboard ;) | 21:59 |
| dneary | RST38h: He'll be looking for a solution to his problem - "Fuck yeah I have a problem" | 21:59 |
| lardman | RST38h: help/getting help/etc rather than bugzilla, etc, | 21:59 |
| RST38h | Jaffa: You forgot Development | 21:59 |
| bundyo | dneary: http://bundyo.org/maemo/site/ | 21:59 |
| RST38h | Jaffa: And Reporting Bugs | 21:59 |
| dneary | Jaffa2: I think it's important to separate two different types of documentation | 21:59 |
| bundyo | dneary: http://bundyo.org/maemo/site/index2.html | 21:59 |
| bundyo | for internal | 21:59 |
| Jaffa2 | Each of these top-level things points to a wiki page (except maybe downloads). This wiki page then points to static content (/api/), sub-apps (/downloads/) etc. etc. | 21:59 |
| dneary | 1. User documentation ("how to unbrick your N810") | 21:59 |
| RST38h | dneary: Well can't give him all, but between Community and Documentation he should figure things out | 22:00 |
| Jaffa2 | dneary: I agree - but *once you're in the documentation section* | 22:00 |
| dneary | 2. Developer documentation (reference guides, application development tutorials, etc) | 22:00 |
| Jaffa2 | This is kinda how we've already organised the front page of the wiki. Why aren't the principles there applicable to the whole of maemo.org | 22:00 |
| RST38h | Developer stuff is NOT just documentation | 22:00 |
| dneary | Jaffa2: I honestly think that's the wrong way to look at it | 22:00 |
| RST38h | So have a Development link and gather APIs and refs under it | 22:00 |
| dneary | You're thinking about what it is, not why someone wants to go there | 22:00 |
| Jaffa2 | RST38h: There are two kinds of developer stuff: Documentation & Downloads. API refs & SDKs. | 22:00 |
| RST38h | Jaffa: ALL development stuff should go under Development | 22:01 |
| dneary | Jaffa2: Absolutely | 22:01 |
| RST38h | Jaffa: Both SDK downloads and API refs | 22:01 |
| dneary | Jaffa2: And documentation splits further into reference & training | 22:01 |
| RST38h | Because not everybody is a developer | 22:01 |
| dneary | (developer docs, that is) | 22:01 |
| Jaffa2 | But, and I raise it again because I think it's important, *what about the development resources under the wiki?* | 22:01 |
| RST38h | Jaffa: See how I have done it here: http://fms.komkon.org/MaemoMain.html | 22:01 |
| RST38h | Jaffa: Dev resources under wiki are fine | 22:02 |
| dneary | So yes, I think it's important to link to developer resources on the wiki from the developer documentation section | 22:02 |
| RST38h | Jaffa: Just keep them there. | 22:02 |
| RST38h | Jaffa: No contradiction | 22:02 |
| dneary | And I think it's important also to link to external tutorials on Maemo | 22:02 |
| Jaffa2 | RST38h: Yes, but how does the developer find them if they're in some static pages under "Development" which only a few people can maintain? | 22:02 |
| qgi1 | hey guys, a proposal to move forward: | 22:02 |
| Jaffa2 | s/they're in/the user is in/ | 22:02 |
| RST38h | Jaffa: Wiki reources? He will search for them | 22:02 |
| Jaffa2 | Pfft. | 22:02 |
| dneary | And I think it's important to link to user docs or troubleshooting docs on the wiki from the appropriate section | 22:02 |
| Jaffa2 | Not if he doesn't know they exist he won't. | 22:02 |
| qgi1 | 1. decide the CONTENT in the hom | 22:02 |
| crashanddie | I also think that there should be links/updates to legal & major breakthroughs should be available from the dev corner... Having news about the open source driver, having news about a new way to draw stuff to screen (eye liqbase), stuff like this is very important for developers | 22:02 |
| RST38h | How do you find ANY other wiki resource? You search | 22:02 |
| qgi1 | 2. decide the top navigation common to all pages | 22:03 |
| RST38h | Jaffa: Then provide a link to wiki from the development section | 22:03 |
| Jaffa2 | dneary: agreed - so the wiki becomes the primary navigation. | 22:03 |
| RST38h | Jaffa: Nothing wrong with that. | 22:03 |
| dneary | Jaffa2: Nonono | 22:03 |
| RST38h | Please, do not make wiki primary navigation | 22:03 |
| RST38h | It is confusing | 22:03 |
| * lcuk nods obviously | 22:03 | |
| dneary | The front page guides people according to why they arrived at the site | 22:03 |
| RST38h | I know a lot of people absolutely love wiki | 22:03 |
| dneary | Not according to the type of information they're looking for | 22:03 |
| Jaffa2 | RST38h: Which bit of the wiki? The wiki content changes more often. I'm suggesting we put parts of the wiki at the second-level to make sure we don't have to do this reorganisation discussion every 6 months | 22:03 |
| dneary | Because guess what, most times they don't know | 22:03 |
| RST38h | But from outside of wiki community it just looks confusing | 22:04 |
| dneary | Do I want to go to the wiki, or ITt? Well, how would I know? | 22:04 |
| bundyo | And a lot of people absolutely hate wikis :) | 22:04 |
| Jaffa2 | dneary: Yes, I'm talking about under the front page. The top-level structure. | 22:04 |
| RST38h | Jaffa: Wiki is no replacement for documentation | 22:04 |
| qgi1 | I insist. In reality there is 3 types of users only: | 22:04 |
| Jaffa2 | The front-page is a splash, a summary, a highlighting of the key areas in more detail than just a single word. Getting the second level right is more hard because once you've done that, the front page just summarises it. | 22:05 |
| qgi1 | 1. those that go to maemo.org for the first time landing at the home | 22:05 |
| qgi1 | 2. those knowing where to go and going to wherever they need | 22:05 |
| qgi1 | 3. those landing anywhere thanks to google search | 22:05 |
| RST38h | mmm... | 22:05 |
| dneary | And that #1 splits further | 22:05 |
| qgi1 | we barely decide on 2 and 3 | 22:05 |
| Jaffa2 | RST38h: I'm not suggesting it does! I'm suggesting we use the dynamic nature of the wiki to write the top-level section pages. Then we can link to static resources, other wiki pages etc. The content in the wiki spans all these areas - it shouldn't be a section in and of itself. | 22:05 |
| qgi1 | this is why we need to focus on the content in the home for those we will guide | 22:05 |
| crashanddie | is there a use case analysis of the maemo.org website? | 22:06 |
| RST38h | Jaffa: No argument from me here | 22:06 |
| Jaffa2 | crashanddie: http://wiki.maemo.org/Task:Improving_maemo.org/proposal | 22:06 |
| dneary | "I want more software for my tablet" and "I've heard about this Maemo think & wouldn't mind trying to build an application for it" are 2 very different needs | 22:06 |
| Jaffa2 | http://wiki.maemo.org/Task:Improving_maemo.org/proposal#Use_cases specifically. | 22:06 |
| RST38h | Jaffa: Just saying that Development section should link to wiki, not BE wiki | 22:06 |
| lardman | I've got to go; I like dneary's idea; I'm an experienced user and I still hate wikis, feel sorry for newbies | 22:06 |
| lardman | will catch up later on | 22:06 |
| -!- lardman is now known as lardman|away | 22:06 | |
| crashanddie | lardman|away, take care | 22:07 |
| dneary | lardman|away: Mind telling me what my idea was? ;) | 22:07 |
| Jaffa2 | RST38h: I'm saying the front-page of the development section should be a wiki page. It shouldn't *look* like a wiki page, it should just *be* a wiki page. Then all we have to decide on is the top-level structure, and the content under those banners can evolve. | 22:07 |
| lardman|away | dneary: the why you're visiting not the what | 22:07 |
| crashanddie | dneary, mass murdering everyone who doesn't know how to use a wiki | 22:07 |
| dneary | Ah yes | 22:07 |
| dneary | That was good, indeed | 22:07 |
| dneary | crashanddie: not what you said, what Simon said | 22:07 |
| RST38h | Jaffa: well, if it does not look like a wiki page, I am ok | 22:08 |
| @GeneralAntilles | crashanddie, I can get behind that idea. :P | 22:08 |
| crashanddie | dneary, it was a joke, nevermind | 22:08 |
| qgi1 | trying to find agreement on the home content: | 22:08 |
| RST38h | it does not matter what the underlying technology is | 22:08 |
| dneary | crashanddie: Me too | 22:08 |
| qgi1 | 1. intro, do we have a smallish block explaining what is maemo.org about of do we leave this for an "About" page? | 22:08 |
| RST38h | but I guess that once it becomes wiki, it will start sliding into wikiness | 22:08 |
| dneary | qgi1: It seems like we've settled implicitly on a front page which has top-level menu + some light content to help people to the right place? | 22:08 |
| Jaffa2 | RST38h: Agreed. I just think midgard is difficult to edit, the number of people who can edit it are limited, and the static content changes too infrequently to have the main pages for each section *be* static content. | 22:09 |
| qgi1 | sure, but it is crucial to decide what is "some light content" | 22:09 |
| dneary | Any thoughts on the front page not having a top-level menu, and having the top-level menu actually *be* the content? | 22:09 |
| dneary | Which was my idea | 22:09 |
| sp3000 | if already has that smallish block, right, "open source development for internet tablets" ;) | 22:09 |
| Jaffa2 | dneary: yes - the top-level sections should have blocks on the front-page either including descriptions or the key content; or both. | 22:09 |
| bundyo | Most people expect a menu | 22:10 |
| RST38h | very few people need to change top pages anyway | 22:10 |
| Jaffa2 | Kind of like the "(Main article)" stuff in wikipedia. | 22:10 |
| Jaffa2 | You need the menu anyway, though, for the rest of the site. | 22:10 |
| dneary | bundyo: I always like to hear people back up statements like that :) | 22:10 |
| RST38h | dneary: won't fit. | 22:10 |
| dneary | Typically it means "I expect a menu" | 22:10 |
| RST38h | not on the tablet browser anyway | 22:10 |
| crashanddie | brb, grabbing a beer, anyone want one? | 22:10 |
| * RST38h expects a menu | 22:10 | |
| * Jaffa2 has to go. WIll read later, I'll have to let someone else keep https://wiki.maemo.org/Improving_maemo.org_agenda/Actions up-to-date. | 22:10 | |
| bundyo | dneary: Take it or leave it but it stems from the OS :) | 22:10 |
| * sp3000 expects beer | 22:10 | |
| -!- Jaffa2 is now known as Jaffa|afk | 22:10 | |
| dneary | OK - how about this: the front page has 5 main blocks + a bottom menu | 22:11 |
| * lcuk steps out, catch you guys later. | 22:12 | |
| RST38h | BOTTOM menu? No. | 22:12 |
| -!- lcuk is now known as lcuk_afk | 22:12 | |
| X-Fade | I think the opensuse.org idea is a good one. Clearly have a few areas in which people can be interested in. | 22:12 |
| qgi1 | on the other hand, there is A LOT of stuff going on in the Maemo community, and we could have a very dynamic homepage with the last/best | 22:12 |
| RST38h | Top menu. | 22:12 |
| qgi1 | if you are new needing more background/static information, you would get the pointers to go | 22:12 |
| * RST38h hates opensuse idea. It is another utterly useless pseudocorporate page | 22:12 | |
| @GeneralAntilles | Yes, the menu should be on top. | 22:12 |
| dneary | The main blocks are, roughly: "Downloads", "Solve your problem", "Get involved", "Community news" and "Developers corner" | 22:12 |
| * RST38h likes iGoogle idea. All the main links on top, main information underneath them, sorted in order of importance | 22:13 | |
| acydlord_aao | RST38h, perhaps, but their landing page is a good start off point for getting to the information you ewant | 22:13 |
| dneary | The bottom menu includes something like "Learn more about Maemo", which brings you to the intro page, and the usual legal shit | 22:13 |
| qgi1 | this is the wikipedia paradigm (a lot of dynamic content + few static links) vs the Mozilla/Ubuntu paradigm (rather static welcoming page with some news) | 22:13 |
| dneary | Although "Learn more about Maemo" might be good as a 6th front-page block too | 22:13 |
| RST38h | acyd: Once I see their landing page, I move away from it thinking "Nothing relevant here | 22:13 |
| * Jaffa|afk quickly looks at http://www.opensuse.org/en/ - that is quite nice. There are clear big links to the main reasons someone's come to the site, plus additional detailed dynamic content below. | 22:13 | |
| Jaffa|afk | The sections themselves aren't a good fit, but I like the concept and the design. | 22:14 |
| dneary | qgi1: The wikipedia front page has far too much content on there | 22:14 |
| RST38h | Jaffa: First thought: "Useless marketing crap"<BACKSPACE><CLICK> | 22:14 |
| dneary | We're not a newspaper | 22:14 |
| qgi1 | fir instance, first impression in OpenSuse is that there is not much going on | 22:14 |
| RST38h | dneary: what is wrong being a newspaper? people read newspapers! | 22:15 |
| bundyo | qgil: one of the links on the front page is to the wiki :) | 22:15 |
| dneary | So I prefer the Ubuntu/Mozilla paradigm | 22:15 |
| Jaffa|afk | qgi1: I didn't get that impression, the top news item is dated 4 days ago! | 22:15 |
| qgi1 | we generate lots of new stuff everyday | 22:15 |
| RST38h | dnearyL who reads advertising materials? | 22:15 |
| dneary | RST38h: A newspaper front page will be very different to a community portal | 22:15 |
| qgi1 | Jaffa|afk: SURE, AFTER SCROLLING DOWN | 22:15 |
| Jaffa|afk | qgi1: but much of the stuff generated is esoteric, beta quality | 22:15 |
| @GeneralAntilles | I'm with dneary on the mozillo/Ubuntu arrangement. | 22:15 |
| Jaffa|afk | qgi1: Not on my window - trying to worry about "beneath the fold" is a waste of time IMNSHO. Although the top section on OpenSUSE.org is bigger than I would have it. | 22:16 |
| RST38h | dneary: Well, we won't have nude Paris Hilton at the front page, but otherwise why would it be different? | 22:16 |
| dneary | RST38h: A newspaper front page will have just a banner + news | 22:16 |
| dneary | We've got more stuff | 22:16 |
| @GeneralAntilles | Anyway, I think we're bogging a bit with this discussion. Shall we move on to more technical issues and pick up it up later on -community where we can go a bit more in depth? | 22:16 |
| RST38h | dneary: And this is exactly what I would expect from maemo.org front page | 22:16 |
| RST38h | dneary: Banner + navigation links + news | 22:16 |
| RST38h | dneary: "more stuff" is accessible with a single click on the top menu | 22:17 |
| dneary | GeneralAntilles: I think there are 2 main currents here, and we probably need some mock-ups to decide | 22:17 |
| Jaffa|afk | /./. | 22:17 |
| lcuk_afk | if there are any nimbled fingered web people try to mock something up of your favorite. a picture tells a thousand words | 22:17 |
| crashanddie | re | 22:17 |
| RST38h | lcuk: http://fms.komkon.org/MaemoMain.html | 22:18 |
| RST38h | lcuk: And Bundyo has his own design | 22:18 |
| lcuk_afk | lol dneary :) | 22:18 |
| lcuk_afk | :) rst | 22:18 |
| sp3000 | yeah, opensuse's thing looks nice, if you compare to maemo.org today it's the same arrangement roughly, m.o just has underemphasized the big cases and whitespace so it looks kinda smashed | 22:18 |
| * lcuk_afk + kids in bed mode | 22:18 | |
| sp3000 | (yeah, opensuse's top bit is a tad overemphasized for our case imo) | 22:19 |
| dneary | lcuk_afk: which lol? | 22:19 |
| dneary | But I definitely have the impression that we have some nice ideas for the front page now, and have something approaching agreement for the top-level menu we're adopting | 22:20 |
| dneary | which is nice | 22:20 |
| @GeneralAntilles | Let's pick it up on -community and get some mockups together, then. | 22:20 |
| * crashanddie throws a beer at sp3000 | 22:20 | |
| @GeneralAntilles | The midgard wiki | 22:20 |
| @GeneralAntilles | it needs to die for good. | 22:20 |
| dneary | Now - before we run out of time, I wanted to talk a bit about outdated content - do we update it, or throw it away? | 22:20 |
| qwerty12_N800 | GeneralAntilles: +1 | 22:20 |
| dneary | Do we pack it away in the attic somewhere and hope its google juice goes down? | 22:21 |
| sp3000 | crashanddie: thanks but one will do tonight | 22:21 |
| dneary | Does it depend on the content? | 22:21 |
| @GeneralAntilles | Outdated official Nokia docs should be archived and pushed to the back. | 22:21 |
| RST38h | dneary: API refs for the old stuff should live one | 22:21 |
| RST38h | s/one/on/ | 22:21 |
| @GeneralAntilles | The midgard wiki just needs to die. | 22:21 |
| dneary | Ah - good to see that GeneralAntilles was reading my mind :) | 22:21 |
| * dneary needs to start to read while typing | 22:21 | |
| @GeneralAntilles | We should do another sweep through to find the last bit of salvageable content, move it to mediawiki and then kill midgard dead. | 22:21 |
| jott | i would prefer to redirect all old content it to new appropriate pages. | 22:21 |
| dneary | GeneralAntilles: That's what I think too | 22:21 |
| @GeneralAntilles | Now, the question of redirects. (thanks, jott) | 22:21 |
| dneary | But I ran into several people in Berlin who were wondering why (their favourite old wiki page) hadn't been moved to the new wiki | 22:22 |
| @GeneralAntilles | The midgard wiki has generated good page ranks for itself | 22:22 |
| @GeneralAntilles | as can be seen by the old flashing articles that just wont disappear off Google. | 22:22 |
| -!- lardman|away is now known as lardman|back | 22:22 | |
| dneary | jott: I would agree, but not all the old content has appropriate new content | 22:22 |
| lardman|back | abortive trip into town | 22:22 |
| X-Fade | GeneralAntilles: removing those pages will kill their ranking ;) | 22:22 |
| lardman|back | mock-ups would be good | 22:22 |
| crashanddie | the easiest way, without deleting anything, would be to add a rule in robots.txt ? | 22:22 |
| @GeneralAntilles | X-Fade, but replacing them with redirects? | 22:22 |
| jott | dneary: in which case either the new content has to be generated or the old content be evaluated if it's worth keeping. | 22:23 |
| sp3000 | if it has historical value or utility but is obsolete, add a red box with admonishment and linkage to recent if available; if it's just aged and has no use as such, update / redirect | 22:23 |
| X-Fade | GeneralAntilles: Does the same thing. | 22:23 |
| qgi1 | sorry to keep hitting the nail, but I think that we still haven't thought about the consequences of a maemo.nokia.com that will cover the basic & official information of the platform | 22:23 |
| X-Fade | GeneralAntilles: Google will detect the redirect and will remove the ranking too. | 22:23 |
| @GeneralAntilles | sp3000, that's mostly what we have now. | 22:23 |
| Jaffa|afk | qgi1: Including API & reference material? | 22:23 |
| @GeneralAntilles | The current situation is borne of a crappy compromise to keep the old outdated content around. | 22:23 |
| crashanddie | borne? | 22:24 |
| lardman|back | qgi1: do we have any control over that content? | 22:24 |
| sp3000 | GeneralAntilles: details on the suckage? | 22:24 |
| @GeneralAntilles | crashanddie, muscle memory. ;) | 22:24 |
| qgi1 | all official devloper documentation will go out of maemo.org | 22:24 |
| @GeneralAntilles | qgi1, oh really? | 22:24 |
| qgi1 | I man the final/stable docs, the unstable/ongoing work is to be kept in the wiki according to the plan | 22:24 |
| Jaffa|afk | "go out of" meaining "go away from" or "be found out of"? | 22:24 |
| bundyo | that's a new one | 22:24 |
| Jaffa|afk | Yeah | 22:24 |
| Jaffa|afk | That's a game changer. | 22:24 |
| lardman|back | in which case our developers' corner will link to community howtos and to the maemo.nokia.com page for official stuff | 22:24 |
| Jaffa|afk | What timescale are we looking at for maemo.nokia.com? | 22:25 |
| qgi1 | maemo.org = community /// maemo.nokia.com = Nokia | 22:25 |
| @GeneralAntilles | sp3000, midgard is cluttering the site, cluttering search results and generally getting in the way of productive work while providing very little value. | 22:25 |
| X-Fade | We will always have a current copy of the documentation, that can be edited by the community. | 22:25 |
| lardman|back | really, I don't see it changes much, we just change the links | 22:25 |
| @GeneralAntilles | lardman|back, well, it changes the organizational plans for the Development section somewhat. | 22:25 |
| X-Fade | So we can have even better documentation than the official one :) | 22:25 |
| sp3000 | GeneralAntilles: that's not details | 22:25 |
| crashanddie | X-Fade, we have IRC, always better | 22:26 |
| jott | lardman|back: but when you clicked on a link you might get out of the site context and can't navigate back.. | 22:26 |
| qgi1 | and I think it changes the case of the users landing in maemo.org just for general information | 22:26 |
| sp3000 | I mean specific fail cases, you know, solvables | 22:26 |
| @GeneralAntilles | sp3000, take the old flashing articles. They're still the top hit on google even though they've been deleted. | 22:26 |
| lardman|back | jott: yes, that is true, can we frame the off-site content? | 22:26 |
| lcuk_afk | what happens when community documentation becomes good enough to be moved into official - or is this not a scenario on the radar? | 22:26 |
| jott | lardman|back: no! no frames! especially considering usage on the tablets ... :. | 22:26 |
| qgi1 | I expect people landing in maemo.org to know already about maemo.nokia.com / the basics and going there to meet community and unstable stuff | 22:26 |
| lardman|back | jott: ah true, silly me | 22:26 |
| @GeneralAntilles | If we can't use the midgard wiki's page rank to boost the new wiki, then we should just pull whatever is useful out of it and move it to mediawiki then delete midgard. | 22:26 |
| sp3000 | yeah, ok, str: google flash n800 | 22:27 |
| Myrtti | there's logs of this meeting later on, right? | 22:27 |
| qgi1 | the documentation could be developed in maemo.org taking all the good contributions to the final/stable docs | 22:27 |
| X-Fade | lcuk_afk: Yes, that is being discussed. A way for information to flow back into the official docs. | 22:27 |
| lcuk_afk | good | 22:27 |
| @GeneralAntilles | Myrtti, maemo.org/maemo-meeting | 22:27 |
| Myrtti | good, phew | 22:27 |
| sp3000 | GeneralAntilles: so that should be redirecting | 22:28 |
| @GeneralAntilles | sp3000, X-Fade says that the redirect will kill the page rank. | 22:28 |
| dneary | qgi1: Just to be clear: official stable docs will be hosted on maemo.nokia.com? | 22:28 |
| jott | qgi1: i don't think people visiting maemo.org should/will be aware of "Maemo" | 22:28 |
| KotCzarny | page rank lost, page rank gained | 22:28 |
| sp3000 | GeneralAntilles: because the page rank is going to such great use now | 22:28 |
| KotCzarny | it will catch up eventuall when people update links | 22:28 |
| dneary | jott: Indeed - I think they'll mostly be aware of "Nokia N810" | 22:28 |
| @GeneralAntilles | Well, sp3000, I'm thinking we should just kill it outright and not bother with the redirect. | 22:28 |
| crashanddie | GeneralAntilles, actually, we do | 22:29 |
| lardman|back | GeneralAntilles: can will kill it but save the data somewhere so people can eventually port it across? | 22:29 |
| crashanddie | GeneralAntilles, having people fall on 404 is going to be a pain | 22:29 |
| KotCzarny | how abut redirect to run search on new site? | 22:29 |
| @GeneralAntilles | lardman|back, wiki.maemo.org/Updating_the_tablet_firmware | 22:29 |
| qgi1 | jott: why someone not aware of Maemo should land in maemo.org then? | 22:29 |
| KotCzarny | that would save the clicking | 22:29 |
| lcuk_afk | will official documentation include related threading to community documentation - ie will this be a one way channel into nokia, or can a user come through from maemo.nokia into the community to follow a topic | 22:29 |
| jott | qgi1: google, sites linking to it, etc, etc. | 22:29 |
| lardman|back | GeneralAntilles: not just that page though | 22:30 |
| sp3000 | crashanddie: it's an error page right now :( | 22:30 |
| qgi1 | jott: yes, this is what happens now but what if Nokia pushes seriously maemo.nokia.com? | 22:30 |
| sp3000 | GeneralAntilles: don't break the web | 22:30 |
| @GeneralAntilles | lardman|back, I'm planning on doing a second sweep to pick up whatever is still there that's usable. | 22:30 |
| lardman|back | GeneralAntilles: ok, cool | 22:30 |
| @GeneralAntilles | sp3000, OK, well, we need to figure out which articles actually need redirects. | 22:31 |
| qgi1 | but my point was that when you think in homepages like Ubuntu/Mozilla for maemo.org you need to think that they start providing the basics of the platform and then having a link to Community | 22:31 |
| * sp3000 flails at his usual example of nokia.fi 404'ing all its product pages linked from retailers the otehr year, that was a pain as a customer loopking for a device | 22:31 | |
| KotCzarny | redirect from 404 to search results | 22:31 |
| qgi1 | well, the basics are to be provided by maemo.nokia.com, and "Community" from that perspective is the whole maemo.org | 22:31 |
| sp3000 | loopking! | 22:31 |
| lardman|back | qgi1: no harm in our adapting once that site comes online | 22:32 |
| @GeneralAntilles | Fortunately I don't think there are too many old wiki pages that really need redirects. | 22:32 |
| qgi1 | lardman|back: sure, but I rather plan well once | 22:32 |
| sp3000 | KotCzarny: ...and hope the top result isn't the same stupid fail :) | 22:32 |
| jott | qgi1: hmm, well but this assumption would bring some really different use cases. | 22:32 |
| lardman|back | qgi1: agreed, but in the interim we need to have the content that maemo.nokia.com will contain available | 22:32 |
| KotCzarny | sp3000: add site:maemo.nokia.com to the search string? | 22:33 |
| KotCzarny | to assure proper results | 22:33 |
| sp3000 | assuming the proper result is on that site and not a maemo.org | 22:33 |
| dneary | GeneralAntilles: A decent start for such a trawl might be http://maemo.org/community/wiki/wikireorg/ and http://wiki.maemo.org/Category:Midgard_wiki | 22:33 |
| @GeneralAntilles | qgi1, any way we could get some more details on maemo.nokia.com? | 22:33 |
| * lardman|back is off again, will check log later on | 22:34 | |
| -!- lardman|back is now known as lardman|away | 22:34 | |
| qgi1 | lardman|back: jussi knows better but basically general desc about the platform, howtos, few great downloads, official docs for developers... and the rest linking to maemo.org and wherver | 22:34 |
| bundyo | qgil: any way we can get the content directly in maemo.org through some cross-site requests? | 22:34 |
| sp3000 | KotCzarny: anyhow, if the superseding url is known, better redirect directly | 22:34 |
| jott | i think having maemo.nokia.com as a major entry point for "Maemo" related stuff will directly affect how maemo.org should present its content. | 22:34 |
| bundyo | qgil: about maemo.nokia.com | 22:34 |
| dneary | jott: It all depends | 22:35 |
| dneary | I want to see more about what's going to be on there, what the focus will be, etc | 22:35 |
| KotCzarny | sp3000: sure, but having useful 404 could help users too | 22:35 |
| sp3000 | sure | 22:35 |
| dneary | It could either be complimentary, or make vast chunks of maemo.org redundant | 22:36 |
| jott | dneary: yes, sure but it sounds a bit like the priority will shift to maemo.nokia.com (which is understandable for nokia) and in the end it would be good to have it somewhat consistent with the .org site. | 22:36 |
| dneary | Before I go (which is soon) I wanted to talk about one other thing | 22:37 |
| qgi1 | dneary: basically we can count that Nokia will provide all the basic/official information and marketing for Maemo as a product for consumers and developers | 22:37 |
| jott | like preventing unnecessary redundancy/confusion when setting up plans now... | 22:37 |
| dneary | In the agenda, there's talk of "mushing Tim's content for community live this week" | 22:37 |
| dneary | pushing, not mushing | 22:37 |
| @GeneralAntilles | dneary, not gonna happen. | 22:37 |
| qgi1 | maemo.org can concentrate happily on independent community and the beta/unstable stuff | 22:37 |
| @GeneralAntilles | I don't think it really fits with a Mozilla/Ubuntu approach. | 22:37 |
| dneary | GeneralAntilles: Oh! I hadn't said anything :) | 22:37 |
| dneary | Why not? | 22:37 |
| @GeneralAntilles | Well, it'll probably need some revision anyway. | 22:38 |
| jott | it's a bit more of the openmoko.com openmoko.org approach :) | 22:38 |
| dneary | qgi1: So - "independent community" will cover enthusiasts, users with problems and application developers? | 22:38 |
| -!- lcuk_afk [i=lcuk@cpc1-oldh7-0-0-cust232.manc.cable.ntl.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] | 22:38 | |
| dneary | GeneralAntilles: I was going to suggest getting a designer involved to actually lay out his content - I think there's still too much text | 22:39 |
| dneary | GeneralAntilles: So I was going to suggest it not go live this week | 22:39 |
| @GeneralAntilles | dneary, yeah. | 22:39 |
| @GeneralAntilles | I agree. ;) | 22:39 |
| @GeneralAntilles | I think it's based too heavily on our existing setup. | 22:40 |
| dneary | I just noticed that most of the stuff you put in the meeting agenda is the same as what I proposed :) That's cool | 22:40 |
| @GeneralAntilles | Hehe | 22:40 |
| dneary | Basically, I want to avoid paragraphs of text with links as primary navigation | 22:41 |
| dneary | Look at www.gnome.org as a particularly egregious example | 22:41 |
| @GeneralAntilles | qgi1, while you're here, what's the word on the footers, trademark usage, and other legal stuff for maemo.org? | 22:41 |
| qgi1 | dneary: in my opinion "independent community" covers from users willing to meet other users for whatever reason until the alternative kernel hackers with everything in btween | 22:41 |
| KotCzarny | what is dependent community? | 22:42 |
| sp3000 | dneary: or http://maemo.org/development/ where some links are in a sidebar and some are in the body and some in both | 22:42 |
| qgi1 | GeneralAntilles: imho once there is maemo.nokia.com we can "liberate" maemo.org from 99% of Nokia terms and conditions | 22:42 |
| dneary | sp3000: Indeed | 22:43 |
| crashanddie | who funds the maemo.org server and domain? | 22:43 |
| @GeneralAntilles | qgi1, OK, I'm mostly concerned with making sure it's on the radar for the appropriate people in Nokia. ;) | 22:43 |
| dneary | I think I actually reviewed that page a while back & edited it (/me shame...) | 22:43 |
| @GeneralAntilles | crashanddie, you! Congratulations! :P | 22:43 |
| qgi1 | GeneralAntilles: it is, don't worry | 22:43 |
| bundyo | qgil: and probablly 99% of content :) | 22:43 |
| crashanddie | GeneralAntilles, cock | 22:43 |
| @GeneralAntilles | dneary, yeah, I went through Development, too. | 22:43 |
| @GeneralAntilles | What a mess. | 22:43 |
| dneary | So you're a midgard editor now? | 22:44 |
| @GeneralAntilles | _marcell_ upgraded me maybe a month ago. | 22:44 |
| dneary | qgi1: Someone raised the question of copyright and licence on maemo.org content earlier | 22:44 |
| @GeneralAntilles | After I filled a dozen bugs on the Development section. ;) | 22:44 |
| dneary | qgi1: It's something worth thinking about now that we've got content (Tim & GA) from outside Nokia sources without copyright assignment | 22:45 |
| @GeneralAntilles | The wiki's currently got "Copyright © 2002-2008 Nokia Corporation" at the bottom of all pages, too. | 22:45 |
| andre___ | adding "and others" would be a very easy fix ;-) | 22:46 |
| andre___ | (at least that's what Novell did for Evolution) | 22:46 |
| X-Fade | But that is just because I pasted it there when making the skin. | 22:46 |
| sp3000 | dneary: I think on a structural level, a list of "RESOURCE - explanatory sentence" is the right thing there fwiw | 22:47 |
| X-Fade | It is not something Nokia told me to put there. | 22:47 |
| X-Fade | So I guess, I can just remove that? | 22:47 |
| dneary | sp3000: In a development section? | 22:47 |
| qgi1 | I wouldn't bother much about that copyright now... | 22:47 |
| dneary | qgi1: That's what I thought, but it's something that needs thinking about (imagine GA suddenly decides that he doesn't want to publish his content under FDL) | 22:48 |
| sp3000 | dneary: yeah /development/, since it's a resource list, that would be the way to arrange such a thing I think | 22:48 |
| dneary | No immediate action necessary though | 22:48 |
| qgi1 | so... what do you think now about the mamo.org homepage content? still the same? | 22:49 |
| qgi1 | I think it should stress more the life of the community, what is fresh and hot NOW | 22:50 |
| dneary | I think that we've removed one class of people - the people who are asking the "what is this Maemo?" question | 22:50 |
| * sp3000 clicks on Intro | 22:51 | |
| dneary | We're still getting people looking for user forums to solve problems, still getting new developers, still getting people interested in getting involved | 22:51 |
| RST38h | dneary: there should still be an intro page | 22:52 |
| dneary | I guess we drop "intro", and include some community news on the front page, and have 4 or 5 links to sub-sections for downloads, developers, troubleshooting and community | 22:52 |
| sp3000 | quick, someone add some events | 22:52 |
| RST38h | there is no need to make it default of course | 22:52 |
| dneary | RST38h: I'm just reacting to what Quim said | 22:52 |
| * crashanddie adds events | 22:52 | |
| RST38h | ah | 22:52 |
| @GeneralAntilles | sp3000, think it's a bug. | 22:53 |
| qgi1 | yes, my point is that the best way to catch them is showing directly the last/best content instead of static blocks explaining bla bla bla | 22:53 |
| dneary | RST38h: If maemo.nokia.com explains what Maemo is, and we're somehow their community site, then our "what's Maemo?" or "Intro" link will be to maemo.nokia.com | 22:53 |
| qgi1 | hot discussion in the mailing lists now | 22:53 |
| qgi1 | latest bugs submitted | 22:53 |
| qgi1 | latest news | 22:53 |
| sp3000 | GeneralAntilles: oh, yeah, clicking on "events" shows three events, two in the future | 22:53 |
| qgi1 | hot wiki pages now | 22:53 |
| @GeneralAntilles | mailing lists needs a non-broken website forum. | 22:53 |
| RST38h | dneary: technically yes | 22:53 |
| qgi1 | hot downloads now | 22:53 |
| dneary | I wouldn't put all that on the front page... | 22:53 |
| @GeneralAntilles | https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=3743 | 22:53 |
| dneary | That'd be the "News" page for me | 22:53 |
| RST38h | dneary: but practically, you won't to keep the user at maemo.org site | 22:54 |
| qgi1 | dneary: why not | 22:54 |
| sp3000 | dneary: a lot of that stuff doesn't need to be big | 22:54 |
| dneary | Front page: maybe a few planet posts, news & announcements | 22:54 |
| RST38h | I would suggest AGAINST putting too much stuff at the front page | 22:54 |
| RST38h | Just have title, top level menu, and news | 22:54 |
| dneary | Seems like (a) too low-level for people coming to the front page, and (b) too much content to have there | 22:54 |
| sp3000 | I think it's a question of having a good sense of emphasis | 22:54 |
| RST38h | *if* there is some really cool product released the news will tell about it anyway | 22:54 |
| KotCzarny | new people can click 'about' | 22:54 |
| qgi1 | RST38h: when most of the visitors we are talking about are not especially interested in the news/blogs? | 22:55 |
| sp3000 | right now maemo.org looks cluttery because eveything has the same weight | 22:55 |
| RST38h | qgil: Not suggesting to put blogs at the first page | 22:55 |
| RST38h | qgil: But news - hell, yes | 22:55 |
| qgi1 | RST38h: well, if you notice most of the best/top news nowadays come from planet aka blogs | 22:56 |
| RST38h | qgil: if you are a maemo user or a developer and you go to maemo.org - what do you expect to see most of the time? | 22:56 |
| sp3000 | frolicking goats | 22:56 |
| qgi1 | RST38h: all the things I told you :) | 22:56 |
| RST38h | qgil; Then maybe we need a semi-manual filter that will place some of them onto the main page | 22:56 |
| RST38h | qgil: but can't palce the whole planet onto the main page of course | 22:56 |
| qgi1 | RST38h: we have this semi-manual filter, the news karma | 22:56 |
| X-Fade | RST38h: You need to know that most news on maemo.org in the future will come from the community. | 22:56 |
| RST38h | qgil: Doesn't work well | 22:57 |
| KotCzarny | does it really matter what's on the first page? | 22:57 |
| RST38h | qgil; Not right now anyway | 22:57 |
| sp3000 | RST38h: it doesn't? | 22:57 |
| KotCzarny | returning users will have bookmarks | 22:57 |
| RST38h | sp3000: no, looks artificial | 22:57 |
| RST38h | Kot: they won't. I don't. | 22:57 |
| qgi1 | RST38h: I read almost everything humans write about Maemo and I'd say the new karma works pretty well | 22:57 |
| sp3000 | expandterm("artificial" | 22:57 |
| sp3000 | ) | 22:57 |
| KotCzarny | as long everything is 1-2 clicks from the main page, there could be anything | 22:57 |
| RST38h | qgil: well if it does, then use it to filter posts onto the main page, by all means | 22:58 |
| KotCzarny | (as long main page isn't >100kb) | 22:58 |
| qgi1 | top 5 news in the home are usually the top 5 news I'd recomend | 22:58 |
| * dneary votes for more frolicking goats | 22:58 | |
| * sp3000 should file a noscript bug on karma, it gives two heart-thumbsdown combos, one with zero counts | 22:58 | |
| RST38h | X-Fade: doesn't matter what the news source is. If the news is worth reading - publish it to the main page. | 22:58 |
| KotCzarny | dneary: nit pairing service? | 22:58 |
| sp3000 | dneary: how about a mockup, too! | 22:58 |
| dneary | sp3000: I'll leave that to you, as the proposer | 22:59 |
| * RST38h agrees on the goats but we really need both genders | 22:59 | |
| @GeneralAntilles | When Nokia ships WinCE, we can switch maemo.org to frolicking goats. | 22:59 |
| RST38h | qgil: Any news on Nokia plans with WinMobile? =) | 22:59 |
| dneary | qgi1: I agree with you - top 5 news stories are good | 22:59 |
| @GeneralAntilles | Ha | 22:59 |
| sp3000 | dneary: how about http://odditycentral.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/07/tree_goats1.jpg | 22:59 |
| RST38h | dneary: Why top 5? | 22:59 |
| dneary | RST38h: Why not? | 23:00 |
| qgi1 | now imagine top 5 bugs and features requests according to Bug Jar | 23:00 |
| @GeneralAntilles | hearts/thumbs for news stories works fine in my view. | 23:00 |
| RST38h | dneary: The page scrolls down, you can have top 20 | 23:00 |
| dneary | qgi1: Top 5 bugs/features by votes? | 23:00 |
| dneary | Or most recent? | 23:00 |
| qgi1 | last 3 active threads in the maemo.org lists | 23:00 |
| KotCzarny | both? | 23:00 |
| RST38h | qgil: not of any interest on the main page | 23:00 |
| @GeneralAntilles | No need to bug jar that. | 23:00 |
| @GeneralAntilles | Just grab it directly from bugzilla. | 23:00 |
| dneary | 5 most recently reported bugs doesn't make much sense to me | 23:00 |
| dneary | It'll be mostly random | 23:00 |
| RST38h | qgil; We all already KNOW top 5 feature requests | 23:00 |
| sp3000 | dneary, yeah, it's "activity" | 23:00 |
| RST38h | And a lot of people know what the top 5 bugs are | 23:00 |
| qgi1 | last 3 wiki pages created | 23:00 |
| sp3000 | qgi1: top 5 bugs by anything but most recent would be an annoying list that never goes anywhere, eventually, on any bugzilla | 23:01 |
| KotCzarny | who would be the target audience of the main page? | 23:01 |
| RST38h | Just have news at the main page, ok? | 23:01 |
| KotCzarny | devs, users or newbies? | 23:01 |
| RST38h | Do not place anything else there, except for Events maybe | 23:01 |
| sp3000 | qgi1: that's just the dynamic of such systems ;) | 23:01 |
| qgi1 | when did I say 5 most recent bugs? I said the most important according to Bug Jar :) | 23:01 |
| @GeneralAntilles | The list that never changes. | 23:02 |
| sp3000 | qgi1: yeah, I'm saying recent is ok, others will probably suck | 23:02 |
| dneary | that's why I asked whether you meant most recent or by votes | 23:02 |
| KotCzarny | (or search bots) | 23:02 |
| qgi1 | then recent, I just mean that we should give visibility to what is going on | 23:02 |
| qgi1 | last created projects at garage | 23:02 |
| dneary | Anyway - I have to go, people | 23:02 |
| @GeneralAntilles | ogg, gps, 12/24, Nokia involved in Bugzilla | 23:02 |
| RST38h | You all do understand that having 5 topmost bugs and feature requests at the main page will be VERY annoying for the regulars? | 23:03 |
| RST38h | And for newbies it will be meaningless | 23:03 |
| qgi1 | the last of everything and just one top? | 23:03 |
| sp3000 | RST38h: yes :) but most recent 5 are ...stimulating and fresh! | 23:03 |
| sp3000 | (like frolicking goats) | 23:03 |
| qgi1 | anything new is calling for attention | 23:04 |
| sp3000 | ok, no more beer durnig irc meetings for me | 23:04 |
| crashanddie | you're the frolicking goat | 23:04 |
| @GeneralAntilles | frolicking sp3000s | 23:04 |
| * crashanddie opens another beer | 23:04 | |
| RST38h | me-e-e? | 23:04 |
| sp3000 | beee-eee-ee-e-r | 23:04 |
| dneary | Honestly, top 5 bugs, latest mailing list threads, wiki pages - I think that would be useful on a News or Community page, but not the front page | 23:04 |
| @GeneralAntilles | I'm with dneary. | 23:04 |
| crashanddie | agreed | 23:04 |
| qgi1 | I think a good collection and presentation of the new stuff would be way more interesting than a rather static home with some news | 23:04 |
| sp3000 | dneary, think small, like "Other Mozilla Software" on mozilla.org small | 23:04 |
| RST38h | dneary: latest mailing list threads *may* be useful at the front page except that not all of them are relevant | 23:05 |
| @GeneralAntilles | Let's get some mockups and see what looks overloaded and what doesn't though. | 23:05 |
| dneary | qgi1: What would be useful for the front page would be applications | 23:05 |
| KotCzarny | how about making main page configurable after login? | 23:05 |
| dneary | Top 5, most recent | 23:05 |
| RST38h | Yes | 23:05 |
| @GeneralAntilles | KotCzarny, if you want to code it up. | 23:05 |
| KotCzarny | doesn't wiki allow for that? | 23:05 |
| @GeneralAntilles | Otherwise, no. | 23:05 |
| dneary | Most active garage projects | 23:05 |
| sp3000 | meh, configuration is a cop-out when you can't figure out what to do :P | 23:05 |
| RST38h | naah | 23:05 |
| @GeneralAntilles | sp3000 ++ | 23:06 |
| dneary | Or if we had a way to measure the activity of wiki pages (rank them by number of edits in the past 2 days or something) and have the most active wiki pages - that might be useful | 23:06 |
| KotCzarny | sure, i can | 23:06 |
| RST38h | this is too weird | 23:06 |
| crashanddie | that's doable | 23:06 |
| RST38h | only interesting for wiki fans | 23:06 |
| dneary | RST38h: It is a sign of where people are swarming, and what's hot right now in the community | 23:07 |
| dneary | Which is, I think, what Quim's trying to get across | 23:07 |
| sp3000 | (hot like fr... er) | 23:07 |
| RST38h | yea, but realistically, who would like to see that? | 23:07 |
| bundyo | this is just getting weirder and weirder :) | 23:07 |
| * crashanddie raises hand | 23:07 | |
| KotCzarny | rst38h: most likely wiki admins | 23:07 |
| KotCzarny | :) | 23:07 |
| @GeneralAntilles | Illustrating community activity is a good plan. | 23:07 |
| RST38h | Then let wiki admins have their own main page | 23:07 |
| dneary | For example, last week the top 5 wiki pages would probablu have been "Improving maemo.org", "Maemo Summit 2008", "100Days/Sprint 5" | 23:08 |
| crashanddie | hot spots is the best way to get people involved | 23:08 |
| @GeneralAntilles | http://wiki.maemo.org/Special:Recentchanges | 23:08 |
| crashanddie | there's no worse cooler for a new and fresh and aspiring maemo hacker to get involved with something that is completely and utterly dead | 23:08 |
| KotCzarny | still, who is the target audience of the main page? | 23:08 |
| dneary | GeneralAntilles: Now can you think of a way to order that list by number of edits per page? | 23:08 |
| RST38h | Don't you think that the main page should contain information people actually READ? | 23:09 |
| dneary | KotCzarny: People who don't know what they're looking for | 23:09 |
| @GeneralAntilles | dneary, I'm not mediawiki coder. | 23:09 |
| qgi1 | the target audience is people willing to join / follow / know about the Maemo community and whatever it produces | 23:09 |
| KotCzarny | dneary: so that excludes devs and regulars | 23:09 |
| RST38h | Not some arcane autogenerated statistics that show the measure of community onvolvement? | 23:09 |
| sp3000 | dneary: parse atom, tansmogrify, done | 23:09 |
| KotCzarny | ie. most of us here | 23:09 |
| sp3000 | transmogrify, even | 23:09 |
| crashanddie | KotCzarny, if maemo.nokia.org goes live, the maemo.org page goes into a whole different direction imho... It's already people who have a certain interest in the underlying community/projects | 23:09 |
| dneary | KotCzarny: Users looking for applications, developers looking for information on writing a Maemo application, new enthusiasts interested in getting involved, or tablet users with a problem they'd like to see fixed | 23:09 |
| RST38h | qgil: Are you absolutely sure the main page should be a marketing instrument? | 23:09 |
| qgi1 | something as simple as http://wiki.maemo.org/Special:Newpages shows interesting last 5 results | 23:10 |
| qgi1 | "marketing instrument" is a good one | 23:10 |
| sp3000 | of course if mediawiki had a way to do the transmogrification step and export it in atom that'd be nicer | 23:10 |
| qgi1 | what is (or what is not) a marketing instrument? | 23:10 |
| crashanddie | sp3000, that's really not hard to code | 23:10 |
| RST38h | Because if maemo.org becomes a marketing instrument, then there is no more reason for me (personally) to go there | 23:10 |
| sp3000 | crashanddie: yeah | 23:11 |
| qgi1 | showing the activity of the community in its various ways is IMO the best way to show to anybody how exciting this community is and where to find what you are looking for | 23:11 |
| dneary | RST38h: That's what web pages are | 23:11 |
| KotCzarny | rst38h, but that's only for main page, rest of the site is your regular community content | 23:11 |
| * RST38h would think it was for the Intro page | 23:11 | |
| dneary | qgi1: Last 5 pages includes a lot of stuff which is either transitory or doesn't get many edits | 23:11 |
| * crashanddie hands RST38h a beer, chill bro | 23:11 | |
| dneary | Heavily edited pages, if we could get them, would be better IMHO | 23:12 |
| @GeneralAntilles | RST38h, so, you want VGBA highlighted but not the wiki or bugzilla? | 23:12 |
| sp3000 | I don't think it's realistic to expect any drilled down utility from a site front page | 23:12 |
| crashanddie | dneary, I can work on that | 23:12 |
| qgi1 | even more transtory and with less edits if nobody is aware of them | 23:12 |
| RST38h | General: Actually, I do not want VGBA highlighted either | 23:12 |
| @GeneralAntilles | Then why are you asking people to rate it? | 23:12 |
| RST38h | General: I just want top navigation menu and news at the main page | 23:12 |
| RST38h | General: How is it related to maemo.org main page? | 23:12 |
| KotCzarny | i'm with rst38h | 23:12 |
| qgi1 | can you please sites you are following everyday? URLs please | 23:13 |
| @GeneralAntilles | Well, Pearls are on the front page. | 23:13 |
| qgi1 | (list) | 23:13 |
| @GeneralAntilles | Anyway, whatever. | 23:13 |
| sp3000 | hot apps, recent bugs, and such, are a kind of news | 23:13 |
| * crashanddie has the feeling this conversation has top speed of naught | 23:13 | |
| bundyo | http://ajaxian.com | 23:13 |
| crashanddie | www.google.Com | 23:13 |
| RST38h | General: Oh, the pearls...You can remove the pearls from the main page, no argument from me | 23:14 |
| sp3000 | crashanddie: of a dreadn...aught! | 23:14 |
| RST38h | www.google.com | 23:14 |
| KotCzarny | aren't pearls interesting for new users? | 23:14 |
| bundyo | http://maemo.org | 23:14 |
| crashanddie | yeah, the pearl is a waste of bandwidth if you ask me | 23:14 |
| bundyo | :) | 23:14 |
| bundyo | i'm honest | 23:14 |
| dneary | qgi1: I will say again: there is a place for latest wiki pages created, but perhaps not the front page | 23:14 |
| RST38h | They are, but it is fine to have them at the download page only IMHO | 23:14 |
| crashanddie | because sadly, it never really relates to something that's actually interesting | 23:14 |
| @GeneralAntilles | http://slexy.org/view/s20kGNEZg1 | 23:14 |
| dneary | To use the wikipedia example - they have "In the news", but they're not necessarily new pages | 23:15 |
| crashanddie | Having a top 5 "new pages" is useless | 23:15 |
| qgi1 | I bet most of the sites you deal with on a daily basis get most of what you want in the home alon | 23:15 |
| crashanddie | there's already a Special:Newpages page, that's just duplicated information | 23:15 |
| crashanddie | having the top most edited pages of the day/week/month, now there's something that is relevant information (be it on the main page or not) | 23:16 |
| KotCzarny | i have a script that aggregates news for me | 23:16 |
| KotCzarny | from diff. pages | 23:16 |
| @GeneralAntilles | Well, I think we should continue this on -community. | 23:16 |
| @GeneralAntilles | Get more people involved, get a deeper discussion going. | 23:16 |
| crashanddie | I have CloudReader | 23:16 |
| @GeneralAntilles | 'bout time to wrap this up anyway. | 23:16 |
| dneary | crashanddie: Before I edited them, I discovered some nice apps with the pearls | 23:16 |
| crashanddie | oh cock, I completely forgot to package it and put in extras | 23:16 |
| dneary | I'm definitely gone now | 23:17 |
| crashanddie | dneary, take care | 23:17 |
| dneary | The wife will kill me :) | 23:17 |
| dneary | Night all | 23:17 |
| crashanddie | dneary, kill her first | 23:17 |
| bundyo | night | 23:17 |
| qwerty12_N800 | night | 23:17 |
| KotCzarny | get her with chloroform | 23:17 |
| KotCzarny | :> | 23:17 |
| qgi1 | night to me too, it's getting late in Helsinki | 23:17 |
| KotCzarny | or ether | 23:17 |
| jott | but most of the sites visited daily are news sites. should maemo.org/ be a news site or an entry point? | 23:17 |
| crashanddie | chloroform doesn't kill | 23:17 |
| qgi1 | will try to draw a mockup with pencil :) | 23:17 |
| crashanddie | qgi1, it's only 11 | 23:17 |
| bundyo | night qgil | 23:17 |
| @GeneralAntilles | Already, good enough. | 23:17 |
| @GeneralAntilles | X-Fade, stick the logs up, please. :P | 23:18 |
| @GeneralAntilles | Thanks everybody! | 23:18 |
| crashanddie | would't 2 or 3 PM UTC be a better time for everyone? | 23:18 |
| RST38h | jott: Entry point is where I expect to see the news every morning | 23:18 |
| qgi1 | jott: "news" is just a piece of "activity" | 23:18 |
| KotCzarny | i'm getting up around 3pm est | 23:18 |
| @GeneralAntilles | crashanddie, getting the US people in here on a Saturday didn't work out so well. | 23:18 |
| qgi1 | and show(casing) the activity of the Maemo community is imho the best entry point | 23:18 |
| qgi1 | crashanddie: my clock says 00:19 | 23:19 |
| crashanddie | qgi1, oh, my bad | 23:19 |
| bundyo | mine too | 23:19 |
| jott | qgi1: not if i want to get to development information or get my problem solved :/ | 23:19 |
| -!- Jaffa|afk is now known as Jaffa2 | 23:19 | |
| @GeneralAntilles | crashanddie, mostly a one-off here, anyway. | 23:19 |
| crashanddie | these meetings should be held in a timeless manner | 23:19 |
| crashanddie | or timely | 23:19 |
| crashanddie | </pun> | 23:19 |
| qgi1 | jott: no homepage will give you directly the doc page or the FAQ you ar looking for | 23:19 |
| @GeneralAntilles | I wanted to get everybody in one place to kick off the discussion. | 23:19 |
| * Jaffa2 quite likes the idea of a rolling average of bug/downloads/wiki activity to show where people are swarming. Would've highlighted the recent activity in #176. Might or might not be front page worthy, but it's a cool idea. | 23:20 | |
| jott | qgi1: no, but if i have to go trough a list of 100 news before i get to the relevant link i would be disappointed | 23:20 |
| RST38h | jott: for dev information there would be a huge link in the top menu: Development | 23:20 |
| sp3000 | I think it's some big topics on top (300px or so), then all the activity in the world | 23:20 |
| RST38h | And the Development page will have references on top | 23:20 |
| KotCzarny | navigation on top | 23:20 |
| KotCzarny | then do whatever you like | 23:21 |
| qgi1 | jott: between a static page with links saying "Developers" and "Support" or a dynamic page showing those links together with latest/coolest e.g. developer docs and discussion threads, I think the latter gives me a better impression of what can I get from there | 23:21 |
| crashanddie | agreed | 23:21 |
| crashanddie | a snapshot of the content is always better than a best-as-you-can description | 23:22 |
| Jaffa2 | qgi1: I've got "latest" RSS feeds aggregated for the wiki (RecentChanges) and Bugzilla. It's not very helpful. Some kind of rolling average of activity would work very well, though. (Could be a definition of "latest cool stuff" ;-)) | 23:22 |
| RST38h | qgil: 1. Developer docs are updated once every several months so there won't be latest and greatest | 23:22 |
| RST38h | qgil: 2. a lot of discussion threads are pretty irrelevant. Do you really want to see darius in the news every moring? | 23:22 |
| crashanddie | is he still on the ML? | 23:23 |
| RST38h | So, why not limit the main page to the general news? | 23:23 |
| @GeneralAntilles | Not lately | 23:23 |
| @GeneralAntilles | We've got Mark Haury now. | 23:23 |
| RST38h | crash: who knows...maybe he is lurking | 23:23 |
| sp3000 | yeah, dev docs and such is one of the big topic links, not on the activity part except by accident | 23:23 |
| bundyo | and make it customizable :) | 23:23 |
| -!- crashanddie is now known as DariusJack | 23:23 | |
| RST38h | KILL KILL | 23:23 |
| DariusJack | Mhuwhahahahaha | 23:23 |
| -!- KotCzarny is now known as JackDarius | 23:23 | |
| RST38h | Before he gets away! | 23:23 |
| * bundyo runs around | 23:24 | |
| * qwerty12_N800 murders DariusJack with a glock | 23:24 | |
| JackDarius | hey hey hey | 23:24 |
| JackDarius | don't kill my alt | 23:24 |
| qgi1 | http://wiki.maemo.org/Qt4_Hildon is a developer doc created few days ago - remember that official stable docs won't be part of maemo.org | 23:24 |
| bundyo | what happened to the big friendly trout? :) | 23:24 |
| sp3000 | (nice meeting log) | 23:24 |
| -!- DariusJack [n=crashand@SecuraBit/listener/crashanddie] has left #maemo-meeting ["aaarrgghhh"] | 23:24 | |
| -!- JackDarius is now known as KotCzarny | 23:24 | |
| -!- crashanddie [n=crashand@SecuraBit/listener/crashanddie] has joined #maemo-meeting | 23:24 | |
| Jaffa2 | qgi1: And use the "Category:Development" to group it? | 23:25 |
| qwerty12_N800 | bundyo: it went with advent of guns :p | 23:25 |
| RST38h | 1:25am | 23:25 |
| qgi1 | RST38h: about discussions, if they are irrelevant they go away fast - long threads get more timing in the home | 23:25 |
| RST38h | qgil: Oh but they don't...a good flame war can go forever | 23:25 |
| Jaffa2 | qgi1: I was thinking that. The longest threads are when there've been people like darius or some kind of trolling. The best have sometimes been the shortest. | 23:25 |
| Jaffa2 | What RST38h said :) | 23:25 |
| crashanddie | + We need to educate mailing lists posters to: 1/ learn how to use citation properly 2/ not have discussions with over 20-30 replies, at some point, just rename it | 23:26 |
| crashanddie | xyz (was: zyx) | 23:26 |
| qgi1 | if the community decides to discuss about something irrelevant through 5 days and 67 posts... the community deserves to have that sh** in the home as well :) | 23:26 |
| bundyo | They're uneducatable :) | 23:26 |
| RST38h | You cannot educate mailing list posters | 23:27 |
| crashanddie | sure you can | 23:27 |
| RST38h | qgil: Please, be merciful on the community | 23:27 |
| sp3000 | the news you see now will have more emphasis quite naturally since they have syndicable content; bug reports and mail threads don't work so well for that so they'll tend to appear an order of magnitude smaller | 23:27 |
| crashanddie | moderate the list | 23:27 |
| sp3000 | I think that'll work out fine | 23:27 |
| bundyo | Close the mailing list? :) | 23:27 |
| * crashanddie strokes modappbot | 23:27 | |
| @GeneralAntilles | qgi1, but it's usually not the "Community" that decides, it's 1 or 2 idiots and another half-dozen suckers. | 23:27 |
| qgi1 | RST38h: I am. I was just adapting the adagio "All countries have the government they deserve" :) | 23:27 |
| crashanddie | GeneralAntilles, language | 23:28 |
| sp3000 | meh, those threads pass too | 23:28 |
| crashanddie | qgi1, going to washington anytime soon? | 23:28 |
| qgi1 | GeneralAntilles: there are mailing lists when a single post from a single person with reputation makes shut up everybody | 23:28 |
| sp3000 | if they don't, them appearing as one line on a front page isn't going to be the biggest problem | 23:29 |
| qgi1 | in any case, most of the times the discussions are good and useful and they would provide interesting snapshots of real community activity in the home | 23:29 |
| sp3000 | and that's all the space an email thread can really have there | 23:29 |
| Jaffa2 | + number of replies. | 23:29 |
| @GeneralAntilles | We need to fix the forums at some point first. | 23:29 |
| Jaffa2 | ...and link to the forums - which are missing -community | 23:30 |
| crashanddie | GeneralAntilles, why op? | 23:30 |
| RST38h | Ok, I have got an idea | 23:30 |
| crashanddie | GeneralAntilles, stroke e-peen much? | 23:30 |
| sp3000 | if we were thinking of pushing all individual msg subjects or body content, then I'd worry more | 23:30 |
| @GeneralAntilles | crashanddie, just 'cause I was fixing the topic and am really lazy. | 23:30 |
| X-Fade | GeneralAntilles: bergie is going to look at that on monday.. | 23:30 |
| RST38h | How to connect Quim's idea of marketing stuff with the popular idea of having usable main page | 23:30 |
| -!- mode/#maemo-meeting [-o GeneralAntilles] by GeneralAntilles | 23:30 | |
| crashanddie | oh you tool | 23:30 |
| crashanddie | you forgot to op me first | 23:30 |
| RST38h | qgil: How about having just the overal STATS at the main page, in cute colorful boxes with icons? | 23:31 |
| KotCzarny | and girls | 23:31 |
| sp3000 | RST38h: numbers are not content | 23:31 |
| RST38h | qgil: Examples: Number of users, Number of projects, Number of wiki edits, etc | 23:31 |
| Jaffa2 | Interesting. Like "4 new developer threads today/this week/..."? | 23:31 |
| qgi1 | RST38h: why a page with "real" and community generated dynamic content is for you more marketing than a mostly static page with well measured descriptions? | 23:31 |
| RST38h | qgil: And when you click on these, you get to the actual lists | 23:31 |
| crashanddie | Quite frankly, I know this might sound elitist, but I was toying with the idea of having applications undergo a "minimal maemo quality test" | 23:32 |
| RST38h | qgil: For me, the main page should only contain stuff that I read | 23:32 |
| crashanddie | I mean, before they get endorsed on the front page, or something | 23:32 |
| sp3000 | yeah, I don't use the "todo" functionality on my s60 exactly because all it will tell me on the idle screen is "you have 5 open todo items", like I f****g care, I want actionable data :) | 23:32 |
| RST38h | qgil: None of the above stuff is of any interest to a regular or a newbie | 23:32 |
| RST38h | qgil: So I suggest a half-way idea | 23:32 |
| bundyo | Which will work with half of the users | 23:33 |
| RST38h | qgil: Let us include the auto-generated stats but keep their screen estate to the minimum | 23:33 |
| RST38h | qgil: To make them visible to whoever they should be visible to use color emphasis and catchy icons | 23:33 |
| RST38h | qgil: And clicking on them will show the whole information you would like to show | 23:34 |
| Jaffa2 | sp3000: true, but the only data on your TODO is stuff you'd've entered (unless you were using taskt.com - which I've not got round to finishing). The stuff on maemo.org is either latest, which is variable quality - and good stuff can be hidden too quickly; or ranked somehow. Either by age, activity, karma, ... | 23:34 |
| crashanddie | how about we create both and we ask for a vote? | 23:34 |
| Myrtti | *sigh* | 23:34 |
| * Myrtti rolls eyes at the "and girls" comment | 23:34 | |
| crashanddie | Myrtti, ? | 23:34 |
| sp3000 | yeah, frolicking goats is where it's at | 23:34 |
| sp3000 | Jaffa2: yeah, but numbers are super-duper-useless | 23:35 |
| jott | and keep in mind to reduce actual load times on embedded devices for the start page :) | 23:35 |
| Jaffa2 | sp3000: it shows the activityness which qgi1 was concerned about. | 23:35 |
| sp3000 | and me entering the data doesn't make my todo list of homogenous quality ;) | 23:36 |
| jott | when we have 1000 items and it takes 1 hour to load this would be unfortunate | 23:36 |
| sp3000 | Jaffa2: not to a human | 23:36 |
| sp3000 | it's not interesting unless there are words, srsly | 23:36 |
| Jaffa2 | sp3000: I didn't say it was *interesting*; I said it showed there was activity (not what that activity was). | 23:36 |
| RST38h | numbers are there just to show an overall statistic | 23:36 |
| RST38h | click on the number - an dyou get the whole thing | 23:37 |
| crashanddie | I will note RST38h is really trying hard to get to a consensus here... He went from "strongly opposed", to "what about a coloured stats box", to "don't let it have too much real estate, please" | 23:37 |
| GeneralAntilles | Thrash it out on -community. | 23:37 |
| qgi1 | RST38h: "None of the above stuff is of any interest to a regular or a newbie" - well, it's a picture about the Maemo community now and there is probably no content that will make happy all the users visiting that page | 23:37 |
| sp3000 | Jaffa2: we could show activity in a downloadable spreadsheet, too ;) | 23:37 |
| RST38h | qgil: I think people have given enough reasons why it is not of any interest | 23:38 |
| crashanddie | qgi1, if I'm getting this right, you'd like the real consumer newbie to dash out on maemo.nokia.org, right? And then the community/development interested newbie to tiptoe on maemo.org, right? | 23:38 |
| qgi1 | then why ITt interests to so many people? | 23:38 |
| crashanddie | s/nokia.org/nokia.com/ | 23:38 |
| Jaffa2 | sp3000: We could. I thought the stats idea might mitigate qgi1's concern as to seeing a vibrant community when reaching the maemo.org homepage. I think there's been a number of points that showing the content itself *can* be offputting | 23:38 |
| qgi1 | crashanddie: yes | 23:38 |
| RST38h | the main and overall reason - there is no way to insure that all these reported changes )wiki pages, threads, discussion etc) are relevant | 23:38 |
| RST38h | qgil: itt is a discussion forum | 23:39 |
| RST38h | not the same as maemo.org | 23:39 |
| * Jaffa2 comes back to the rolling average of activity to represent swarming. But a quick look shows the technical detail of that being harder than necessary. | 23:39 | |
| RST38h | although maemo.org may include a discussion forum | 23:39 |
| crashanddie | qgi1, yeah, I'm with you on that... And in such an approach, I really don't get why having live snapshots of what's happening *within* the community would be such a problem | 23:39 |
| qgi1 | for many people maemo.org is a place to discuss on a daily basis too | 23:39 |
| sp3000 | Jaffa2: yeah content isn't problem-free, but I don't see what would replace it | 23:39 |
| crashanddie | RST38h, could you try to explain why? | 23:39 |
| RST38h | crash: Why maemo.org != itt? | 23:40 |
| Jaffa2 | For example, picking out recent changes in Category:Community or Category:Development means polling Special:RecentChanges and then correlating the pages against the category, and keeping score. No easy means of Special:RecentChanges/Category:Development AFAICT | 23:40 |
| RST38h | Jaffa: Midgard is already too slow | 23:40 |
| bundyo | Why colored boxes then? Why not just a sentence like "There are 4 new developer threads, 3 new garage projects and so on" somewhere with links on every part? No real estate taken, (maybe a sign look here) and all the numbers are there :) | 23:40 |
| RST38h | Jaffa: Stop master-planning on how to kill it =) | 23:40 |
| crashanddie | RST38h, "if I'm getting this right, you'd like the real consumer newbie to dash out on maemo.nokia.org, right? And then the community/development interested newbie to tiptoe on maemo.org, right? [quim answered yes] yeah, I'm with you on that... And in such an approach, I really don't get why having live snapshots of what's happening *within* the community would be such a problem" | 23:40 |
| sp3000 | you don't do that live on requests, yeah :) | 23:40 |
| Jaffa2 | RST38h: Agreed. This should be static content generated every 15 minutes, hour or something. People doing dynamic websites are being silly when they do things inline ;-) | 23:41 |
| RST38h | bundyo: sentences are too long and non-colored boxes are not cactchy enough (this is what qgil wants afaik) | 23:41 |
| sp3000 | hm, dunno if you want to go separating wiki cats, that may expand things too far | 23:41 |
| RST38h | crash: no, no | 23:41 |
| crashanddie | Jaffa2, not if you have a good framework that will do the caching for you | 23:41 |
| Jaffa2 | sp3000: Only those two wiki categories (from a quick look) | 23:41 |
| Jaffa2 | crashanddie: yeah, fine - we don't though. We've got midgard. | 23:41 |
| Jaffa2 | ;-) | 23:41 |
| GeneralAntilles | How about we get some mockups together and see what looks good? | 23:41 |
| RST38h | crash: what I want is a list of 7-9 activities at the top (such as Community Bugs Docs etc) | 23:41 |
| sp3000 | yeah, that's details, depends on how much a layout can usefully accommodate | 23:41 |
| qgi1 | GeneralAntilles: fully agree | 23:41 |
| sp3000 | RST38h: that doesn't conflict | 23:42 |
| crashanddie | Jaffa2, I have a framework [carbonPHP, shameless self promotion] that can be written "inline", as you say, and will handle any load without a problem | 23:42 |
| GeneralAntilles | Right now we're moving exactly nowhere with this discussion. ;) | 23:42 |
| RST38h | crash: So a newbie will always go to the relevant place | 23:42 |
| jott | for me the main problem with news items on the start page is, that it clutters and distracts... | 23:42 |
| qgi1 | in software code talks and in web development... :) | 23:42 |
| crashanddie | RST38h, why couldn't we have both? | 23:42 |
| RST38h | crash: But under these links I just want news. Because if you are not searching for something, you will most likely just want to know what is new | 23:42 |
| jott | at least when having such a broad variety of news. | 23:42 |
| crashanddie | RST38h, I don't believe they are mutually exclusive | 23:42 |
| qgi1 | jott: distracts from what? | 23:42 |
| sp3000 | RST38h: but the front page can't possibly be the page with the useful content for those, just the starting pointers | 23:42 |
| RST38h | crash: Who they? | 23:42 |
| RST38h | sp3000: as I said, a top menu: http://fms.komkon.org/MaemoMain.html | 23:43 |
| Jaffa2 | Doing a convincing web design needs pictures. Doing a convincing software architecture requires a well thought-out set of bullet points. | 23:43 |
| jott | qgi1: from the proposed 6 "main links". | 23:43 |
| crashanddie | RST38h, general news (aggregated blogs, and what not) and live community snapshots, and a navigation bar | 23:43 |
| qgi1 | jott: the main links are still there | 23:43 |
| RST38h | crash: Ah, there is a reason | 23:43 |
| jott | yes. that's why i said "clutter" and "distraction" | 23:43 |
| sp3000 | RST38h: what's the benefit of having all that on the front page? | 23:44 |
| RST38h | crash: If it is only the news, you can have them in a single column top to bottom | 23:44 |
| qgi1 | jott: a lot of clutter and distraction depends basically on design | 23:44 |
| qgi1 | and this is why I agree with GeneralAntilles with th mockups | 23:44 |
| bundyo | customizable front page... again? :) | 23:44 |
| jott | qgi1: have you any reference in mind? | 23:44 |
| RST38h | crash: if it is several types of news, you have to create multiple columns - makes tetx less readbale (especially on n8x0) and wastes space | 23:44 |
| sp3000 | RST38h: (the content that is, not the linkage to the major topics; that linkage should be emphasized more than you have imo) | 23:44 |
| RST38h | sp3000: there are several pages mocked up there | 23:45 |
| GeneralAntilles | bundyo, I'm against the customizable front page. | 23:45 |
| sp3000 | (for the biggest topics anyway) | 23:45 |
| GeneralAntilles | Too heavy for the tablets, too much work to setup, mostly pointless. | 23:45 |
| RST38h | sp300: I compressed them all into a single mockup | 23:45 |
| crashanddie | RST38h, I'm quite sure that's not correct... | 23:45 |
| RST38h | crash: look at slashfot | 23:45 |
| RST38h | slashdot | 23:45 |
| sp3000 | RST38h: I'm not sure what the argument is about then, you seem to be agreeing | 23:45 |
| crashanddie | GeneralAntilles, plus javascript drag and drop is a hell on touch devices... No screen panning | 23:45 |
| qgi1 | jott: no when you askd but then I tried with http://www.spreadfirefox.com/ and... surprise! | 23:45 |
| bundyo | not heavy if it is build on the server, not that flexible but still | 23:45 |
| sp3000 | RST38h: except with the trailing content of the front page being a bunch of activity syndication, which doesn't take anything away from it | 23:46 |
| bundyo | i'm not using drag and drop for this reason | 23:46 |
| GeneralAntilles | bundyo, it's mostly pointless anyway. | 23:46 |
| GeneralAntilles | If I want stuff I'm just going to go direct to the stuff. | 23:46 |
| jott | qgi1: ok so hide news somewhere deep below that might be ok. but then again, load the page on your tablet. | 23:46 |
| GeneralAntilles | Planet, Bugzilla, Wiki, Garage, whatever. | 23:46 |
| bundyo | okay, then decide what should be on it for everyone :P | 23:46 |
| RST38h | sp3000: yes but who needs trailing content? who will see it? | 23:46 |
| RST38h | it is somewhere at the bottom | 23:46 |
| GeneralAntilles | bundyo, that's why I want some mockups. | 23:47 |
| GeneralAntilles | Since we're not getting anywhere here. | 23:47 |
| qgi1 | jott: I'm just pointing out that another successful community project goes for a home reflecting the comm unity activity NOW | 23:47 |
| crashanddie | ok | 23:47 |
| bundyo | yeah | 23:47 |
| crashanddie | I'll get thinking about this | 23:47 |
| sp3000 | RST38h: the major topics linkage will take maybe third of a desktop screenful I should hope | 23:47 |
| jott | qgi1: i still thinking of the "i visit maemo.org with my tablet"-use case.. | 23:47 |
| GeneralAntilles | Anyway, I really like bundyo's look anyway. :D | 23:47 |
| crashanddie | But, there's a shitload of space on the maemo.org page that is just wasted | 23:47 |
| RST38h | qgil: aren't general News reflecting community activity? | 23:47 |
| qgi1 | jott: sure: design work | 23:47 |
| sp3000 | and having the activity content doesn't hurt :) | 23:48 |
| crashanddie | RST38h, no, general news are reflecting week-old news, and blog posts about guys talking about concerts | 23:48 |
| qgi1 | RST38h: a part of it: the bloggers | 23:48 |
| jott | qgi1: no. not only design. it's the time it needs to be parsed and displayed. | 23:48 |
| RST38h | crash: judging from planet, it is only 30% true | 23:48 |
| RST38h | qgil: but don't you think it is a sufficient part? | 23:48 |
| bundyo | jott: excluding JS it is fairly fast | 23:49 |
| GeneralAntilles | Well, hopefully the council blog will improve the overview news a bit. | 23:49 |
| RST38h | for the min page anyway? | 23:49 |
| RST38h | main | 23:49 |
| qgi1 | RST38h: no :) | 23:49 |
| crashanddie | but indeed, after this discussion, maybe having a /Community page isn't a bad idea | 23:49 |
| jott | lol spreadfirefox.com made microb crash :) | 23:50 |
| qgi1 | jott: it's again about design | 23:50 |
| RST38h | then maybe you should follow livejournal example and hire a secretary who will scan mailing lists on daily basis and create summaries? =) | 23:50 |
| crashanddie | jott, of course it did | 23:50 |
| jott | yeah like leaving out irrelevant news :) | 23:50 |
| crashanddie | jott, you're not spreading firefox, you're spreading microbs | 23:50 |
| jott | good design :p | 23:50 |
| RST38h | jott: I am sure spreadmaemo.com will do the same =) | 23:50 |
| jott | ok sorry :) | 23:50 |
| crashanddie | RST38h, actually... I think that job would be for GeneralAntilles :P | 23:51 |
| crashanddie | oh good lord, lots of coppers chasing bad guys in London tonight | 23:51 |
| * jott just don't like the idea of it.. but well other people other opinions.. | 23:51 | |
| RST38h | crash: hush! ;) | 23:51 |
| GeneralAntilles | I was thinking about that, actually. | 23:51 |
| GeneralAntilles | But I don't think it would work. | 23:51 |
| crashanddie | of course it wouldn't | 23:51 |
| crashanddie | you can't get good summaries | 23:51 |
| RST38h | takes a dedicated person with a LOT of free time | 23:52 |
| crashanddie | there's always people who are going to be pissed | 23:52 |
| RST38h | those are rare | 23:52 |
| GeneralAntilles | Well, I wasn't thinking summaries | 23:52 |
| crashanddie | "you left out this subject, and this, and this" | 23:52 |
| GeneralAntilles | just promoting certain threads | 23:52 |
| RST38h | crash: actually, it is perfectly doable but takes a shitload of time | 23:52 |
| GeneralAntilles | Which the news <3/thumbs would be nice for | 23:52 |
| GeneralAntilles | But can't really translate that to mailing lists. | 23:52 |
| crashanddie | again, how do you promote a thread into a read-only form, to which no one can reply directly | 23:53 |
| GeneralAntilles | The forums on the website. . . . | 23:53 |
| jott | GeneralAntilles: collaborative spamassasin :) | 23:53 |
| qgi1 | alright, my conclusion for today: I have gone through many web projects including community ones ---> at the end mockups is what counts | 23:53 |
| crashanddie | that's the problem with mailing lists, either you're on them, or you're not | 23:53 |
| GeneralAntilles | http://maemo.org/community/maemo-developers/ | 23:53 |
| crashanddie | qgi1, good night | 23:53 |
| qgi1 | nite | 23:53 |
| bundyo | night | 23:53 |
| KotCzarny | :) | 23:53 |
| KotCzarny | evening | 23:54 |
| -!- qgi1 [n=qgil@a88-112-27-165.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has left #maemo-meeting [] | 23:54 | |
| GeneralAntilles | Alright, wrap up, move on, hit -community with some mockups. :) | 23:54 |
| * crashanddie opens another beer | 23:54 | |
| sp3000 | stop tempting me with all these feeds to mockup with actual content, I don't have the time | 23:54 |
| RST38h | sleep! | 23:54 |
| RST38h | (1:54) | 23:54 |
| KotCzarny | breakfast! | 23:54 |
| crashanddie | 22:54 | 23:54 |
| crashanddie | :D | 23:54 |
| jott | yeah conclusion: don't discuss about this at all, just make mockups :) | 23:54 |
| qwerty12_N800 | crashanddie: +1 :p | 23:55 |
| crashanddie | I guess you could say... Mock the discussion? | 23:55 |
| GeneralAntilles | jott, get some mockups and discuss them. <_< | 23:55 |
| Jaffa2 | GeneralAntilles: Bah, date format still broken. No "Community" forum. Stills seems out-of-sync with mailing list. In fact, *definitely* out-of-sync. | 23:55 |
| Myrtti | mmm crackers and cheese | 23:55 |
| GeneralAntilles | Jaffa2, yeah, it's broken. | 23:55 |
| GeneralAntilles | But still. | 23:55 |
| jott | GeneralAntilles: no, get more mockups and in the end vote :) | 23:55 |
| jott | no discussion needed :P | 23:55 |
| jott | pointless anyway in most cases ;) | 23:56 |
| Jaffa2 | Good web mockups take a *long* time, unless you end up discussing pretty CSS designs (which also take time). | 23:56 |
| KotCzarny | jaffa2, then do pencil one | 23:56 |
| KotCzarny | (or ps one) | 23:56 |
| bundyo | or just some photoshoped pictures ;) | 23:57 |
| jott | yeah ps mockups are enough in most cases. | 23:57 |
| GeneralAntilles | Nothing too involved. | 23:57 |
| Jaffa2 | Pencil/Inkscape/Gimp still all take time. | 23:57 |
| KotCzarny | start with the site you like? | 23:57 |
| jott | Jaffa2: sure.. | 23:57 |
| Jaffa2 | GeneralAntilles: I think you overestimate people's ability to look past look and see concept. Also, as quim pointed out: if the look is good, that can make/break a feel. | 23:58 |
| bundyo | yup, they take, but less than the same plus actually layouting it and coding it :) | 23:58 |
| GeneralAntilles | Well, we're not getting anywhere fast here. :P | 23:58 |
| bundyo | :) | 23:58 |
| Jaffa2 | You thought it would be easy? ;-) | 23:58 |
| GeneralAntilles | Nah | 23:58 |
| GeneralAntilles | But there's no sense bogging down | 23:59 |
| GeneralAntilles | Pick it up on -community | 23:59 |
| KotCzarny | just make html blocks (without layout) and tableize/css them? | 23:59 |
| jott | just encourage more people to do mockups. | 23:59 |
| jott | and i think -community has a too small reach | 23:59 |
| GeneralAntilles | Advertise! | 23:59 |
| KotCzarny | especially most are hackers | 23:59 |
| jott | GeneralAntilles: council blog about it! | 23:59 |
| KotCzarny | who don't like writing docks/mockups | 23:59 |
| --- Log closed Sun Sep 28 00:00:02 2008 | ||
| --- Log opened Sun Sep 28 00:00:02 2008 | ||
| --- Day changed Sun Sep 28 2008 | ||
| Jaffa2 | GeneralAntilles: I don't disagree. I just think it'll end up with no decision makers. Who *will* make the decision? | 00:00 |
| jott | just really "call for mockups" | 00:00 |
| jott | without other "issues" | 00:00 |
| GeneralAntilles | Jaffa2, us, the benevolent dictators of course! :D | 00:00 |
| Jaffa2 | KotCzarny: I know how *I'd* do it, it still takes time to make a compelling design, and tell a story which encompasses the use cases. There's no point spending time on a design - which has the look & feel integrated - if the consensus on the layout and structure of the site is so different. | 00:01 |
| KotCzarny | jaffa2: how about making 80% which take 20% of time? | 00:01 |
| bundyo | I can edit the mockup thread on itt to add all that want to in the first post and a link to -community subscription :) | 00:01 |
| Jaffa2 | For example, now that we know the primary, definitive developer documentation is going to be on maemo.nokia.com - that changes how I hope we approach the layout. | 00:01 |
| Jaffa2 | GeneralAntilles: Good. That's what I was thinking :-) | 00:01 |
| jott | Jaffa2: as there is no consensus of structure and layout you can just go ahead and make a good mockup to convince the "masses" :) | 00:01 |
| Jaffa2 | jott: indeed :) | 00:02 |
| KotCzarny | :) | 00:02 |
| * Jaffa2 would rather sleep, however. | 00:02 | |
| jott | GeneralAntilles: i think it's a really nice council task to encourage as many people as possible to do mockups. | 00:03 |
| jott | i bet nokia folks are also willing to give some small incentive :) | 00:03 |
| jott | it seems n810 grow on trees :D | 00:04 |
| sp3000 | ...like goats | 00:04 |
| GeneralAntilles | Ha | 00:04 |
| sp3000 | as previously illustrated | 00:04 |
| KotCzarny | food. brb | 00:04 |
| bundyo | okay guys, time for me to hug the pillow | 00:07 |
| qwerty12_N800 | night bundyo | 00:07 |
| bundyo | night all | 00:08 |
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| andre___ | oh. we finished? cool :) | 00:11 |
| GeneralAntilles | ;) | 00:11 |
| andre___ | i have to admit that i didn't spend the entire time in front of this computer :) | 00:12 |
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| GeneralAntilles | andre___, not a big deal, it was a lot of arguing without a whole lot of results. :P | 00:13 |
| andre___ | yeah. that's the definition of "meeting" | 00:14 |
| * andre___ should edit the wikipedia entry ;-) | 00:14 | |
| andre___ | well. first meeting. it's quite normal. | 00:14 |
| andre___ | btw, which timezone are you in? 18:16h? | 00:15 |
| GeneralAntilles | UTC-4 | 00:15 |
| andre___ | fits :) | 00:16 |
| bergie | 01:16am here... some of us would have other things to do on a Saturday night ;-) | 00:16 |
| -!- Myrtti [i=myrtti@ubuntu/member/myrtti] has left #maemo-meeting ["tatah kids"] | 00:17 | |
| GeneralAntilles | My plan for getting more US people involved didn't work out so well. | 00:17 |
| bergie | yep... I propose seeking more sensible times for next meetings | 00:17 |
| * GeneralAntilles shrugs. | 00:17 | |
| GeneralAntilles | Like I said before, there's a lot of people in a lot of timezones. | 00:17 |
| bergie | ...like for instance first asking who will attend and then choosing the time based on that | 00:17 |
| GeneralAntilles | Sometimes some meeting will inconvenience a certain subset of those people | 00:18 |
| GeneralAntilles | The goal is to distribute that inconvenience as much as possible. | 00:18 |
| bergie | yep, but I think most of us are in Europe | 00:18 |
| GeneralAntilles | and most of the meetings have favored European times. :) | 00:18 |
| bergie | you call 10pm favoring? | 00:19 |
| GeneralAntilles | One meeting that favors US residents wont kill anybody. :) | 00:19 |
| bergie | as far as I remember, all meetings have been at 10pm since they were moved from Nokia Research Center to IRC | 00:19 |
| GeneralAntilles | Bug Quim about the sprint scheduling. | 00:19 |
| Jaffa2 | bergie: 10pm *Finnish* time. Finnish time != European time. CDT was 9pm, BST was 8pm. | 00:20 |
| Jaffa2 | Though you have my sympathies | 00:20 |
| bergie | Jaffa2: Finnish and Turkish time, it has bit me in both ;-) | 00:20 |
| bergie | working in Istanbul I'm reliant on wifi-equipped cafes , and they tend to close at some point | 00:20 |
| bergie | now I'm at least not far from my bed ;-) | 00:21 |
| sp3000 | hmm, mountain mirrors sounds interesting | 00:23 |
| andre___ | bergie, 1:16 is not late. i normally go clubbing around 2AM :) | 00:26 |
| bergie | andre__: that depends on the culture... most places here close around 2/3am | 00:27 |
| andre___ | yeah, was the same in sweden when i was there... | 00:28 |
| jott | hehe many clubs open here at 2/3am :p | 00:30 |
| bergie | yes, Helsinki night life sucks | 00:31 |
| bergie | after 4am there is only passed out people and fist/knife fights | 00:31 |
| * Jaffa2 sticks his "imagine your own mockup" mockup oar in on -community. Get in first to shape people's ideas ;-) | 00:33 | |
| bergie | ok, good night, guys | 00:39 |
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