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@GeneralAntillesHey, andre___.20:04
andre___hej hej20:05
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@GeneralAntillesHey, bergie made it! :)20:08
bergiestill not happy about the timing ;-)20:08
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bergiebut here anyway20:08
@GeneralAntillesDamn near impossible to get people from Russia to Japan together all in one place at a time that's convenient for everybody. ;)20:09
bergiejust got back from a little excursion...
@GeneralAntillesLooks fun20:10
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* Jaffa2 decided to use a separate IRC client, cos console-based clients aren't best for not breaking my multi-room brain20:54
* Jaffa2 is his own evil twin20:56
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@GeneralAntillesHey, dneary.20:58
dnearyI just sent a mail with notes from the presentation in Berlin to the list20:58
dnearyI haven't had anything to eat yet (9pm here, kids just in bed) so I'm going to take 15 minutes to do that...20:58
Jaffa2Very handy it was too20:58
dnearyBut I promise I will catch up when I get back!20:59
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* melmoth waves at the crowd20:59
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@GeneralAntillesPhone call21:01
@GeneralAntilles2 minutes21:02
lardmanlikely story21:02
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bundyohi guys21:02
Jaffa2Goodo, we've got the majority of the council here. That's good.21:03
@GeneralAntillesOK, sorry about that.21:05
@GeneralAntillesI figured tim was going to make it.21:06
@GeneralAntillesWanted to discuss his Community pages.21:06
@GeneralAntillesAnyway, let's run through the list and see what we need to discuss.21:06
@GeneralAntillesGeneral stuff first21:06
Jaffa2Before we start - you refed that on the agenda. Got a link?21:06
@GeneralAntillesHang on.21:07
Jaffa2Sorry, to tim's community stuff21:07
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crashanddiealready started?21:07
@GeneralAntillesJust getting started21:07
@GeneralAntillesHaven't missed anything.21:07
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@GeneralAntillesSo, general stuff.21:08
@GeneralAntillesAny word on the server upgrades, X-Fade?21:08
@GeneralAntillesPerhaps not.21:09
X-FadeGeneralAntilles: The dns needs to be switched over.21:10
@GeneralAntillesAny eta on that?21:10
X-FadeHopefully monday or tuesday.21:11
@GeneralAntillesFor the whole site we need to look at a few things. Branding and consistency (titles all need to be capitalize, consistent usage of terms, etc) are two main issues which are fairly straightforward to fix.21:11
RST38hany idea why all https: accesses take minutes to complete?21:11
X-FadeWe might need a short downtime again, but let's see.21:11
X-FadeGeneralAntilles: Maybe add a style guide?21:11
X-FadeRST38h: http is cached, https is not.21:12
@GeneralAntillesYeah, that sounds like a plan.21:12
RST38hso, this is the actual performance we are seeing...mhrm21:12
@GeneralAntillesI'll look into putting together some sort of branding guide that's slightly more technical than the existing page on the wiki.21:12
@GeneralAntillesRST38h, dns hasn't been moved to the new cluster.21:13
RST38hGeneral: it is easier done with includes21:13
RST38hGeneral: i.e. branding guide is good, but a few standard include files in html with header/footer/etc are better21:13
@GeneralAntillesWell, this is general usage stuff.21:13
@GeneralAntillesLike maemo -> Maemo21:13
X-FadeRST38h: It is more about styling of Titles etc.21:14
@GeneralAntillesin the content21:14
@GeneralAntillesDid anybody happen to find anybody from Nokia legal to poke during the Summit?21:14
lcuk_afkheader+footer involves runnin round changing everywhere and retesting - changin as noticed to identified documented spec is simpler and better21:14
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@GeneralAntillesWe need to look at the footer for all pages21:15
@GeneralAntillesand the trademark usage guidelines.21:15
bergieRST38h: there are some software upgrades for the server in roadmap too... Midgard Ragnaroek next month should give some incremental benefits, and Midgard Vinland in spring will be faster by several orders of magnitude21:15
X-FadeGeneralAntilles: There is work inside Nokia going on to update the trademark thing.21:15
X-FadeGeneralAntilles: I guess we will see more about that this week.21:16
@GeneralAntillesAlright, as long as its on the radar for somebody.21:16
RST38hbergie: >40sec request turnaround times indicate that it may be something else, not the hardware21:16
dnearyHi all21:16
@GeneralAntillesWelcome back, dneary.21:16
dnearyHave eaten21:16
dnearyFeel slightly better21:16
X-FadeRST38h: Load > 20 does ;)21:16
RST38hbergie: something like a badly written sql query somewhere21:16
@GeneralAntillesGood, let's talk about dneary's proposal.
bergieRST38h: it is both... the old Midgard we run is *very* heavy, and the server badly overloaded by Midgard, MediaWiki etc21:17
lardmanRST38h: what are you having troubles with, works fine for me21:17
X-FadeRST38h: We have discussed this to death. Wait until new hardware ;)21:17
dnearyBut am running tomorrow morning & am tired :(21:17
jottespecially the wiki states "(c) nokia" which sounds wrong to me. it should clearly marked as fdl or cc.21:17
X-Fadejott: Yes, true.21:17
RST38hlardman: anything, when I am logged in... but let us wait and see21:17
X-FadeBut I think that is just me, editing the footer ;)21:17
dnearyjott: Copyright and licence are two separate issues21:17
lardmandneary: we've not assigned copyright though21:18
Jaffa2dneary: Either way, the footer for any page on the wiki shouldn't say (c) Nokia.21:18
dnearyX-Fade: You'll need permission from the copyright holder :)21:19
jottdneary: well as long as it is not stated otherwise also the content is (c) nokia.21:19
dnearylardman: Indeed - in the wiki there's different issues21:19
Jaffa2And there's a strong argument that the only pages under * which should say (c) Nokia in future are things like API docs & reference material for which Nokia employees are the main contributors.21:19
X-Fadedneary: Yes, and I guess isn't something we can assign ownership to?21:19
@GeneralAntillesWho is going to own the trademark?21:20
dnearyX-Fade: There's no problem having several copyright holders on content21:20
RST38hgoing to?21:20
dnearyAs lardman says, no-one has been asked to assign copyright21:20
crashanddieI'll get the trademark for maemo.org21:20
dnearyIn the wiki, I thini t's simply an issue of removing the (c) Nokia21:20
dnearyFor more generally, there's a longer process to go through21:20
dnearyAnd it's not something we're going to get to the bottom of tonight. Let's move on21:21
Jaffa2dneary: really? then timsamoff's stuff for the community pages will require a (c) assignment.21:21
lardmanrealistically there's no problem with it being (C) Nokia, though a copy-share sort of licence would fit better21:21
X-FadeSure, let's setup a discussion with Nokia legal and see what we can do?21:21
lcukyes, the (C) is not a problem as long as it is under a permissive license21:22
@GeneralAntillesIt's not something that's gonna be pounded out right now.21:22
@GeneralAntillesMoving on.21:22
dnearyJaffa2: It's the first case I know of someone not getting paid by Nokia submitting content for - indeed, the question needs to be asked21:22
@GeneralAntillesdneary's proposal:
dnearyBut the will of the Maemo group is clear - is a community resource21:22
@GeneralAntillesI like everything about it.21:22
dnearyIf there are legal obstacles, we'll need to identify & remove them21:22
Jaffa2Who is going to take the action of contacting Nokia legal? Presumably dneary or X-Fade have that contact route?21:22
@GeneralAntillesI removed gronmayer from the list of URLs a few weeks ago.21:22
lardmanRST38h: I take it back, rather slow now :)21:22
dnearyJaffa2: Quim21:22
Jaffa2OK. Who's taking minutes? ;-)21:22
dnearyJaffa2: At least, Quim is my Nokia contact for all that kind of really annoying stuff21:23
dnearyJaffa2: xchat-gnome21:23
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@GeneralAntillesCouncil vote: who thinks Jaffa2 should be the secretary? :P21:23
dnearyOK - first point in the agenda. General maemo.org21:23
* Jaffa2 meant who's going to tell Quim he has that specific action then?21:23
* Jaffa2 will :-)21:24
dnearyI will21:24
dneary"consistency throughout the whole site" - to my mind a superficial issue21:24
Myrtti_o/ hello folks - thought might be good if I'm here too...21:24
@GeneralAntillesLike the sidebar there21:24
@GeneralAntillesThere are some lower-cased holdovers from the lowercase maemo times.21:25
lardmandneary: superficial, but makes an impression21:25
@GeneralAntillesHi, Myrtti. :)21:25
dneary"bugzilla and the wiki to be promoted to top-level navigation" - I agree they should be in the top 2 levels, but *only* if we don't label the links "bugzilla" and "wiki"21:25
@GeneralAntillesWhy is wiki a problem?21:25
RST38hdneary: hehe, that was my idea too21:25
@GeneralAntillesEverybody knows what a wiki is.21:25
lardmanpeople might not know what a wiki is!21:25
RST38hPeople do not know what wiki is21:25
dnearyIt should be "report a problem" or "community-contributed documentation"21:25
Jaffa2wiki seems fine to me; agree on "Bugzilla"21:25
lardmandneary: agreed21:25
@GeneralAntillesThey can't possibly be that long.21:25
RST38hGeneral: They don't. really.21:26
Jaffa299% of Internet users have heard of "wikipedia".21:26
dnearyGeneralAntilles: Suggest something shorter that doesn't include "wiki"21:26
@GeneralAntillesMy votes with wiki21:26
RST38hI called Bugzilla "Bug Reports" and wiki "Documentation"21:26
@GeneralAntillesPeople know what a wiki is.21:26
lardmanI say "Documentation"21:26
RST38hAre these two names fine enough?21:26
Jaffa2RST38h: Except the wiki doesn't contain *all* documentation, so it can't be that.21:26
@GeneralAntillesBugzilla we can just call "Bugs"21:26
dnearyJaffa2: I see 2 or 3 use-cases concerned by this: users with problems finding a treasure trove of contributed information21:26
RST38hJaffa: I have also got Reference! :)21:27
lardmanwho cares that it's a wiki, it's what's in there that's important21:27
dnearyDevelopers looking for community hints & tips21:27
bundyoPeople know what wiki is and are scared from that word ;)21:27
Jaffa2RST38h: Ah :-)21:27
lardmanlike saying "book" but meaning "instructions"21:27
lcuklardman, +121:27
RST38hJaffa: Do check out the proposed layout21:27
dnearyAnd "help improve our community docs site" as a link on the "get involved" page21:27
RST38hMaybe use "Library" for wiki?21:27
jottlardman: but "wiki" encourages collaboration21:27
@GeneralAntillesWe already have a perfectly good word for what we're linking to in the vocabulary.21:27
RST38hjott: but only if you know what it is :)21:27
lardmanRST38h: documentation has fewer meanings in the computer world21:28
Jaffa2"Library", "Reference" and "Documentation" are all too similar. How do I know if a tutorial on porting an application is "Reference", "Library" or "Doc[s]"21:28
@GeneralAntillesIt's "wiki"21:28
jotti think "wiki" is fine. especially since the tablets have the "Internet tablet" target group. *those* should know what a wiki is ...21:28
dnearyRST38h: Library has a very specific meaning for a large chunk of our target audience21:28
RST38hdneary: I hope they do not go there to get drunk...21:28
jotti mean that you grandmother does not know what a wiki is is another story. but it's unlikely she ever will have a tablet21:28
lardmanjott: People will expect to be able to collaborate, call it wiki in the link from the "how to contribute" pages perhaps21:28
MyrttiI seem to have arrived at the correct moment21:28
dnearyI am just going to keep on disagreeing with everyone who thinks that "wiki" is fine21:28
Jaffa2There's a strong argument for emphasising the type of stuff people'll find there, "Community Wiki" (although everything on is community oriented)21:28
* RST38h agrees with dneary21:28
Jaffa2dneary: And I'm very strongly of the belief that "Community-contributed documentation" is a sub-title or a description; not a title.21:29
RST38hPlease, use documentation or Library or RTFM or something21:29
dnearyAs I said, there are 3 separate things here - it's a way to get involved, a source of troubleshooting tips, and a repository of developer documentation21:29
Jaffa2The real problem here is that we've got two bits of documentation: the static stuff (API, refs, tutorials) and the community-contributed stuff.21:29
lardmandneary: I agree with you, wiki is not good enough, see my comment above about book vs instructions21:29
X-FadeWhy not use documentation and under documentation we have 1 official docs, 2 community contributed docs ?21:29
RST38hJaffa: Ok, there is a usage case difference21:29
dnearylardman: Thanks for the support :)21:29
RST38hJaffa: APIs, refs, tutorials all go under Development21:30
Jaffa2And there's no real way anybody in any of the use cases is going to know which one the stuff they need is in.21:30
lardmanX-Fade: I'd assumed that was the plan anyway :)21:30
RST38hJaffa: But Wiki (i.e. Documentation) is the top level link fo rnormal users21:30
Jaffa2RST38h: So where does go?21:30
dnearyJaffa2: Good point21:30
lcukbig red "Help!" button :)21:30
RST38hJaffa: linked from development21:30
Myrttihi bergie21:30
RST38hJaffa: or can be reached via Documentation21:30
bergiehi Myrtti21:30
dnearyJaffa2: Search function for documentation must include both and wiki.maemo.org21:30
Jaffa2Perhaps the major bits of "refernece" documentation go in the wiki; and that becomes the community collaborated entry point to *all* documentation.21:30
X-FadeJaffa2: and linked from /downloads ;)21:30
Jaffa2s/go in/linked from/21:31
dnearyJaffa2: Right now, getting the reference docs in the wiki is painful & not feasible21:31
Myrttidneary: *cough*21:31
dnearyBut there is work going on internally on this subject which I know nothing about21:31
RST38hJaffa: It is ok to have links wherever they are relevant21:31
Jaffa2dneary: Sorry, I meant from a user PoV - they *get* to them through the wiki21:31
Myrttidneary: _o/ hi21:31
dnearyMyrtti: I'm unaware of anything the official docs team is doing (I'm not under NDA, remember ;) )21:32
dnearyHi Myrtti21:32
RST38hJaffa: But the main link structure clearly divides wiki docs an development references and tutorials21:32
* Myrtti has a mediawiki installed on her homeserver for testing purposes...21:32
dnearyJaffa2: I agree with you that there is a fundamental problem when someone comes to looking for documentation related to a problem that they're having, there are 3 places they might go, and there's currently no way to tell which one might actually help with the problem21:33
Jaffa2RST38h: I don't think that helps with the use cases dneary's outlined, unless the static content ends up being updated to link to new wiki pages.21:33
Myrttithat's true ^ I've misnavigated several times21:33
RST38hJaffa: yes, it has to get updated somewhow21:33
Jaffa2The simpler case, instead of modifying the *static*(er) content is to have the main entry point be the wiki, which is more dynamic and rapidly changed as new development resources in the wiki get created.21:33
lardmanJaffa2: +121:34
dnearyJaffa2, RST38h: I think the answer is to make sure that search on the site searches all the places an answer might be21:34
bundyoWhat goes where should be clearly visible right from the front page21:34
dnearyYou're not going to browse a knowledge database21:34
RST38hdneary <-- correct21:34
RST38hAnd you can link to particular search rather than wiki21:34
acydlord_aaoi think a good case reference on entry point would be the way opensuse has their page layout21:35
bundyoopensuse just redesigned btw21:35
Jaffa2dneary: I think you overestimate search on a limited domain. I've "done" search engines for Intranets of thousands of pages, and they *never* meet user's expectations: because the Internet gives false expectations.21:35
bundyoalso good21:35
lardmanJaffa2: Google you mean? ;)21:35
acydlord_aaoi was referring to their redesigned landing page :)21:36
dnearyJaffa2: I think we also need to address the indexing of Google - for example, it pains me to continue to see old wiki pages from 2006 still turn up very high in Google pagerank, their updated versions don't figure on page 1 or 2 in mediawiki21:36
Jaffa2lardman: Google over a wide range of pages. If a page exists on the Internet with the information you want, Google'll find it. There's no guarantee it'll be under a particular domain - especially in a limited knowledge domain.21:36
dnearyAnd I don't know why21:36
Jaffa2dneary: GeneralAntilles has that later on in the agenda :)21:36
dnearyAnyway - feels like we're losing time on something again when there's bigger fish to fry21:37
* Jaffa2 mixed two usages of "domain" there. One DNS, the other subject matter.21:37
dnearyHow 'bout we fry those first?21:37
RST38hare they eadible?21:37
Jaffa2Isn't this the biggest fish? How do we organise the site to provide the information to the users in the use cases you outline?21:37
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dnearyJaffa2: Whether we link to "wiki" or "community documentation" is not important21:37
lardmanfashionably late? ;)21:37
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Myrttihi qgi121:38
qgi1er... no good exscuse, really21:38
Jaffa2dneary: If we link to *one* documentation or three is, however (I think)21:38
dnearyImproving search is, to my mind, a big fish, though21:38
dnearyHi qgil21:38
@GeneralAntillesHey, qgi1.21:38
lardmanhi qgi121:38
Jaffa2I think trying to improve search to solve navigation issues is a hiding to nothing.21:38
lcukhey quim21:38
bundyohi qgil21:38
Jaffa2It's important, but if users can't understand a site's structure, it's of limited use.21:38
lardmanJaffa2: link to one page then to the 3 or however many from there21:38
RST38hHow about we come up with a list of things that have to be on the front page?21:38
qgi1hi, please continue  :)21:39
@GeneralAntillesWell, I think we can agree that the wiki and bugzilla need to be top-level navigation choices.21:39
dnearyJaffa2: Then to you, the site structure is the biggest thing21:39
RST38hSo far I have got: Introduction, Downloads, Community, Documentation Bug Reports Development, news21:39
@GeneralAntillesHow we pound out the specifics of naming and documentation organization may need to be pounded out later.21:39
lardmanGeneralAntilles: but perhaps not with those names :)21:39
RST38h7 areas21:40
dnearyI'd go further - I think we need to rethink the front page, the other major portals that haven't recently been reviewed. Level 0 and 1.21:40
bundyoabout google indexing the old pages - isn't google's sitemap xml just for that?21:40
dnearyAnd only a very small amount of time in Level 221:40
dnearyGeneralAntilles: I don't think we do agree on that21:40
dnearyI think we're pushing too much to the front page if we do that21:41
dnearyWe need: Downloads21:41
@GeneralAntillesThe wiki is where most of the good information that most people want is ending up.21:41
dnearyWe need: Get involved21:41
RST38hdneary: Aside from these links, I would just have news and events at the front page21:41
@GeneralAntillesIt shouldn't be buried.21:41
dnearyWe need: Have a problem?21:41
RST38hWhy do we need "get involved"?21:41
qgi1(sorry if anything I say was said before)21:41
lardmanGeneralAntilles: yes, but we need some intermediate pages to point people to the pages they are interested in21:41
dnearyWe need: Developers area21:41
Jaffa2RST38h: I think it's a synonym for "Community"21:41
dnearySomething like that21:42
bundyobecause some people want to get involved? :)21:42
qgi1what about assuming that home is for newbies21:42
RST38hJaffa: Then let us have Community!21:42
RST38hbundyo: People generally do not want to get involved21:42
crashanddieqgi1, that's bull, actually21:42
qgi1and then is the default page for the usual suspects21:42
RST38hThen want help :)21:42
lardmanRST38h: getting involved is a really big thing, we need to push it21:42
dneary"Get involved" will include thinks like helping with the wiki, bugzilla, developing applications (tutorials and the like), directing people to ITt21:42
bundyoRST38h: generally yes, but there are some21:42
RST38hlardman: We may, but not under such a straightforward name :)21:42
dnearyWe probably need "News"21:42
@GeneralAntillesDepends on what newbies we're talking about. I figure most of the average consumer types are better served by a domain.21:42
bundyothere are some 30% with IE6 too :)21:42
crashanddieWe should not make a distinction between new users and regulars. Everyone should have access to the same website, and to the same documentation/references/help as anyone else.21:43
dnearyAnd I don't think that we must have "Introduction" as a top-level link, necessarily21:43
qgi1sure, "newbies" in the Maemo community21:43
Jaffa2GeneralAntilles: Probably whatever's going to be done with (pointing out that additional apps can be installed (links to and/or the highlighted apps)21:43
RST38hdneary: I had Introduction as a placeholder for the main page link21:43
crashanddieIf I want to check how to use the microphone, I want to be able to go to, and find my way in 5 clicks max.21:43
qgi1= contributors, developers, people willing to find other people...21:43
RST38hdneary: I think there should still be SOME main page21:43
RST38hThat explains what the hell this site is about21:43
Jaffa2crashanddie: Indeed. It seems I'm *always* a newbie when trying to find some API ref ;-) Other times, I'm not so much a newbie.21:44
crashanddieJaffa2, yup21:44
RST38hBtw, why are you looking at opensuse, etc for examples?21:44
bundyowhy not?21:44
RST38hWhy not look directly at iGoogle? iGoogle does good job of keeping relevant stuff upfront21:44
dnearyWhat I'm trying to do is to strip down to the minimum - if I arrive at the front page, what questions do I need answered?21:44
Jaffa2RST38h: The page which explains *what* is, shouldn't be the front page. It just adds clutter if you know. A one line summary, and a link to /introduciton/ is sufficient.21:45
bundyoRST38h: tell me about it21:45
lardmandneary: "About", "Screenshots" ;)21:45
Jaffa2RST38h: iGoogle's customised, and isn't a portal to the same kind of site that is.21:45
dnearyIf I know what I'm looking for, and what I'm looking for is community news, I already go directly to or whatevet21:45
JamieBennettJaffa2: agreeded21:45
RST38hJaffa: Well, I do suggest that we have news at the starting page (see design)21:45
dnearylardman: Maybe...21:45
qgi1see vs
qgi1or vs
RST38hJaffa: It iscustomizable all right, but it IS a portal21:46
dnearylardman: When do people arrive at the front page? Clicking a link from a review or an article, Google search results (when looking for what?), ...21:46
qgi1these two projects are two of the most successful in terms of community in action21:46
qgi1I would copy with pride unless we have something more brilliant than thm21:46
dnearyActually, it'd be nice to know what the top search results that currently lead to are21:46
lardmanor seeing one of the T-shirts we're all wearing now...21:46
RST38hqgil: they are not necessarily the same projects as Maemo21:46
qgi1also noticeable vs
RST38hqgil: so it may not be wise to copy them letter to letter21:47
RST38hdneary: Anybody running Google Analytics on it?21:47
lcuk+1 ubuntu example21:47
RST38hIf not, you should21:47
lardmanI think we should lower the entry bar, no strange names (e.g. wiki), have a link to an "about"/"into" page with details of what is all about,,etc21:47
dnearyRST38h: Don't know21:47
qgi1well, Ubuntu is an opn OS and Maemo too21:47
dnearybergie: Do you have any stats to share on this kind of stuff?21:48
Jaffa2qgi1: A good point; certainly people who arrive at the front page "new" are going to need more guiding to what they want. But the use cases don't help identify what areas of content they /will/ want, because they're end-users looking for additional apps not pushed via; they're new developers looking to get started or they're existing developers looking for references etc. The latter case can learn where stuff is, but it shouldn't be a21:48
RST38hUbuntu is a generic linux distro with a lot of competitors though21:48
X-Fadedneary: I can get the top urls based on server stats.21:48
RST38hMaemo is tied to Nokia hardware21:48
bergiedneary: unfortunately no... but I think most visitors to are "repeat offenders", so they want to see what is new first21:48
dnearyX-Fade: I know that I have gotten search result stats from other sites with just webalizer21:49
bergieso as long as the intro pages are prominently available for newbies...21:49
RST38hNo competitors there, narrower set of goals but much higher requirements for compliance with these goals21:49
X-Fadedneary: I have just that.21:49
lardmanbergie: agreed21:49
dnearybergie: It'd be nice to know, rather than think :)21:49
qgi1surely every case is different but... not that different at the end21:49
bundyoJaffa: not all people arrive new on the front page, some are arriving there with specific needs/searches in mind :)21:49
bergiedneary: site stats are behind Nokia, I think21:49
Jaffa2bundyo: agreed 100%21:49
qgi1download stuff, get documentation, get human support, get involved in the community...21:50
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lardmanbundyo: in which case you click the "developers" link or "documentation" link and away you go21:50
qgi1know about the product21:50
X-Fadebergie: I have access to them. Will try to see if I can get some info out of them.21:50
* Myrtti drifts to doing the dishes...21:50
bundyolardman: every time?21:50
Jaffa2It's hard. That's why simple, clean designs; minimum clutter; clearly defined segments are the right way to go, I think.21:50
bundyolardman: why not get over it? :)21:50
RST38hJaffa: Header + Top Menu + News21:50
lardmanbundyo: that's the way it is atm, you can always bookmark the level two page21:50
dnearyqgi1: You & I think alike21:51
RST38hJaffa: And *no columns*. Columns waste space.21:51
lardmanbundyo: I actually like passing through the news page to see if anything is happening21:51
Jaffa2And bookmarks can help people who come back regularly to the same place.21:51
lardmans/news/main page with news21:51
bundyolardman: why not bookmarking only one specific user customizable "homepage" and voila everything is already there21:51
X-FadeI think we need a 'What's happening' with latest news, conversations on mailinglists, new applications etc etc...21:52
lardmanbundyo: I don't know much about how that would be achieved, but fair enough21:52
X-FadeSomething to show that the community is doing stufff.21:52
lardmanX-Fade: agreed, perhaps pull out threads from the ml too21:52
dnearyI said "Downloads", "Get involved", "Have a problem?", "Developers corner", and maybe "News"21:52
bundyolardman: not necessarily the front page, mind you21:52
lardmandneary: sounds good to me21:53
RST38hUse single words21:53
RST38hThe longer those titles are, the more difficult they are to recognize21:53
dnearyRST38h: Depends how you're structuring the page21:53
sp3000yeah, the latest in flames isn't necesasrily front page material ;)21:53
dnearyIf the words are the content, you're sorted21:53
lardmansp3000: damn!21:53
Jaffa2dneary: terminology's a bit cutesy ("Developers' Corner")21:53
bergieI've got no preferences on whether intro or news should be first... I use RSS anyway ;-)21:53
@GeneralAntillessp3000, can we automagically exclude threads Mr. Haury has participated in? ;)21:53
dnearyIf you want that to be a top-level menu, and have a bunch of other content in the page, then it's trickier21:53
lardmans/corner/dark corner ?21:53
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dnearyJaffa2: Ideas are what's important now, not the words used to express them21:54
* RST38h votes for news first (but do provide link to the intro)21:54
qgi1(Intro embeddd in the home) + Downloads + Support + Community + Developers21:54
Jaffa2dneary: agreed, but RST38h was previously concerned about "Get involved" vs. "Community"21:54
bundyolardman: about passing through the news page - why not the user customizes to see a panel with the latest news in his page...? when newbies arrive the site will be the same for all, but after that let them tweak what they see to their liking... :)21:54
dnearyMaybe a "what is Maemo?" link, but I wouldn't put it very prominently21:54
qgi1(news embedded in the home too)21:54
* RST38h would not use "Get Involved" because it is not the page for Red cross or some other charity21:55
qgi1let's not be obsessed about wording now21:55
@GeneralAntillesbundyo, dynamic user-customizable pages sound like a lot of damn work.21:55
Jaffa2Where's support go? Bugzilla? But there's support in the wiki, and - hopefully - the developer documentation.21:55
dnearyJaffa2: I would say if you already are involved, I'd be surprised if you were going through the front page21:55
andre___dneary: i'd prefer "Report bugs" to "Have a problem?" - bad experience from gnome, people asking for help on app settings and stuff like that...21:55
RST38hJaffa: There is no support at maemo.org21:55
bundyoGeneralAntilles: Yes, but only once :)21:55
dnearyAnd if you are, you probably know what you're looking for21:55
RST38hJaffa: So there should not be a link titled Support21:55
dnearyandre___: I don't think step 1 is report a bug21:55
lardmanJaffa2: yes, support to a sub page that points to the wiki & bugzilla, irc, itt, etc.21:55
RST38hJaffa: Just have Community and Report Bug21:55
Jaffa2RST38h: that was a second point I had in mind. There's no offical support via, but that's terminology21:55
dnearyI think step 1 is "search the wiki and ITt"21:55
bundyoGeneralAntilles: You can't please everyone, let them please themselves :)21:56
dnearyThen if you don't find an answer, "report a bug"21:56
@GeneralAntillesbundyo, feel free to implement that system yourself, then. ;)21:56
qgi1the mailing lists are continuous support + wiki faq to com21:56
qgi1irc is support too21:56
RST38hJaffa: yes, but you do not want to make people think they are gonna get official support21:56
Jaffa2I think the categories should be based on topic, not underlying technology. (So what lardman just said).21:56
RST38hmailing lists = Community21:56
andre___dneary, ah, ok21:56
qgi1nothing in is "official" for that matter...21:56
RST38hwiki = Documentation21:56
dnearyI know when all you have is a happer, everything looks like a nail, but not everyone who is coming to the site with a problem wants to report a bug - some of them actually want to fix their problem ;)21:56
Jaffa2RST38h: agreed - but I only want to clarify the terminology people are using.21:56
bundyoGeneralAntilles: :) if only i had enough time :)21:57
dnearyRST38h: I think that's a fairly restricted view21:57
RST38hdneary: Community link then!21:57
Jaffa2RST38h: community is more than mailing lists.21:57
dnearyThere's definitely overlap21:57
bundyothe small mockup took me 3 weeks21:57
RST38hJaffa: I did not say it is limited to mailing lists :)21:57
dnearySometimes mailing list archive = troubleshooting, documentation21:57
Jaffa2RST38h: then be more precise.21:57
RST38hJaffa: Community = mailing lists + itt + irc21:57
RST38hJaffa: + wherever else people talk21:57
qgi1don't think what we have now, think what the visitors will be looking for21:57
dnearysometimes wiki = reference documentation, sometimes it means troubleshooting21:57
* lardman still thinks "getting involved" makes more sense than "community"21:57
* dneary too21:58
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RST38hlardman: poor schmuck trying to unbrick his n810 will not be looking to get involved21:58
lardmanRST38h: no, he will go to the help page21:58
dnearybundyo: Which small mock-up? I missed the link... sorry21:58
qgi1"community" can be in the navigation and "get involved" a nice block in a column21:58
lardmanRST38h: more than one front end link can point to the same backend data21:58
RST38hlardman: yes, but we have not yet discussed the help page. afaik, there is none21:59
Jaffa2How about this structure (THESE ARE NOT SUGGESTED NAMES): * Meta-data (about, introduction, etc.); * Documentation (will contain links to API docs, HOWTO guides, etc.); * Getting involved (pointers to IRC, mailing lists, etc.); * News; * Downloads (applications, add-ons, whatever)21:59
sp3000Jaffa2: but ⊃ isn't on the keyboard ;)21:59
dnearyRST38h: He'll be looking for a solution to his problem - "Fuck yeah I have a problem"21:59
lardmanRST38h: help/getting help/etc rather than bugzilla, etc,21:59
RST38hJaffa: You forgot Development21:59
RST38hJaffa: And Reporting Bugs21:59
dnearyJaffa2: I think it's important to separate two different types of documentation21:59
bundyofor internal21:59
Jaffa2Each of these top-level things points to a wiki page (except maybe downloads). This wiki page then points to static content (/api/), sub-apps (/downloads/) etc. etc.21:59
dneary1. User documentation ("how to unbrick your N810")21:59
RST38hdneary: Well can't give him all, but between Community and Documentation he should figure things out22:00
Jaffa2dneary: I agree - but *once you're in the documentation section*22:00
dneary2. Developer documentation (reference guides, application development tutorials, etc)22:00
Jaffa2This is kinda how we've already organised the front page of the wiki. Why aren't the principles there applicable to the whole of maemo.org22:00
RST38hDeveloper stuff is NOT just documentation22:00
dnearyJaffa2: I honestly think that's the wrong way to look at it22:00
RST38hSo have a Development link and gather APIs and refs under it22:00
dnearyYou're thinking about what it is, not why someone wants to go there22:00
Jaffa2RST38h: There are two kinds of developer stuff: Documentation & Downloads. API refs & SDKs.22:00
RST38hJaffa: ALL development stuff should go under Development22:01
dnearyJaffa2: Absolutely22:01
RST38hJaffa: Both SDK downloads and API refs22:01
dnearyJaffa2: And documentation splits further into reference & training22:01
RST38hBecause not everybody is a developer22:01
dneary(developer docs, that is)22:01
Jaffa2But, and I raise it again because I think it's important, *what about the development resources under the wiki?*22:01
RST38hJaffa: See how I have done it here:
RST38hJaffa: Dev resources under wiki are fine22:02
dnearySo yes, I think it's important to link to developer resources on the wiki from the developer documentation section22:02
RST38hJaffa: Just keep them there.22:02
RST38hJaffa: No contradiction22:02
dnearyAnd I think it's important also to link to external tutorials on Maemo22:02
Jaffa2RST38h: Yes, but how does the developer find them if they're in some static pages under "Development" which only a few people can maintain?22:02
qgi1hey guys, a proposal to move forward:22:02
Jaffa2s/they're in/the user is in/22:02
RST38hJaffa: Wiki reources? He will search for them22:02
dnearyAnd I think it's important to link to user docs or troubleshooting docs on the wiki from the appropriate section22:02
Jaffa2Not if he doesn't know they exist he won't.22:02
qgi11. decide the CONTENT in the hom22:02
crashanddieI also think that there should be links/updates to legal & major breakthroughs should be available from the dev corner... Having news about the open source driver, having news about a new way to draw stuff to screen (eye liqbase), stuff like this is very important for developers22:02
RST38hHow do you find ANY other wiki resource? You search22:02
qgi12. decide the top navigation common to all pages22:03
RST38hJaffa: Then provide a link to wiki from the development section22:03
Jaffa2dneary: agreed - so the wiki becomes the primary navigation.22:03
RST38hJaffa: Nothing wrong with that.22:03
dnearyJaffa2: Nonono22:03
RST38hPlease, do not make wiki primary navigation22:03
RST38hIt is confusing22:03
* lcuk nods obviously22:03
dnearyThe front page guides people according to why they arrived at the site22:03
RST38hI know a lot of people absolutely love wiki22:03
dnearyNot according to the type of information they're looking for22:03
Jaffa2RST38h: Which bit of the wiki? The wiki content changes more often. I'm suggesting we put parts of the wiki at the second-level to make sure we don't have to do this reorganisation discussion every 6 months22:03
dnearyBecause guess what, most times they don't know22:03
RST38hBut from outside of wiki community it just looks confusing22:04
dnearyDo I want to go to the wiki, or ITt? Well, how would I know?22:04
bundyoAnd a lot of people absolutely hate wikis :)22:04
Jaffa2dneary: Yes, I'm talking about under the front page. The top-level structure.22:04
RST38hJaffa: Wiki is no replacement for documentation22:04
qgi1I insist. In reality there is 3 types of users only:22:04
Jaffa2The front-page is a splash, a summary, a highlighting of the key areas in more detail than just a single word. Getting the second level right is more hard because once you've done that, the front page just summarises it.22:05
qgi11. those that go to for the first time landing at the home22:05
qgi12. those knowing where to go and going to wherever they need22:05
qgi13. those landing anywhere thanks to google search22:05
dnearyAnd that #1 splits further22:05
qgi1we barely decide on 2 and 322:05
Jaffa2RST38h: I'm not suggesting it does! I'm suggesting we use the dynamic nature of the wiki to write the top-level section pages. Then we can link to static resources, other wiki pages etc. The content in the wiki spans all these areas - it shouldn't be a section in and of itself.22:05
qgi1this is why we need to focus on the content in the home for those we will guide22:05
crashanddieis there a use case analysis of the website?22:06
RST38hJaffa: No argument from me here22:06
dneary"I want more software for my tablet" and "I've heard about this Maemo think & wouldn't mind trying to build an application for it" are 2 very different needs22:06
Jaffa2 specifically.22:06
RST38hJaffa: Just saying that Development section should link to wiki, not BE wiki22:06
lardmanI've got to go; I like dneary's idea; I'm an experienced user and I still hate wikis, feel sorry for newbies22:06
lardmanwill catch up later on22:06
-!- lardman is now known as lardman|away22:06
crashanddielardman|away, take care22:07
dnearylardman|away: Mind telling me what my idea was? ;)22:07
Jaffa2RST38h: I'm saying the front-page of the development section should be a wiki page. It shouldn't *look* like a wiki page, it should just *be* a wiki page. Then all we have to decide on is the top-level structure, and the content under those banners can evolve.22:07
lardman|awaydneary: the why you're visiting  not the what22:07
crashanddiedneary, mass murdering everyone who doesn't know how to use a wiki22:07
dnearyAh yes22:07
dnearyThat was good, indeed22:07
dnearycrashanddie: not what you said, what Simon said22:07
RST38hJaffa: well, if it does not look like a wiki page, I am ok22:08
@GeneralAntillescrashanddie, I can get behind that idea. :P22:08
crashanddiedneary, it was a joke, nevermind22:08
qgi1trying to find agreement on the home content:22:08
RST38hit does not matter what the underlying technology is22:08
dnearycrashanddie: Me too22:08
qgi11. intro, do we have a smallish block explaining what is about of do we leave this for an "About" page?22:08
RST38hbut I guess that once it becomes wiki, it will start sliding into wikiness22:08
dnearyqgi1: It seems like we've settled implicitly on a front page which has top-level menu + some light content to help people to the right place?22:08
Jaffa2RST38h: Agreed. I just think midgard is difficult to edit, the number of people who can edit it are limited, and the static content changes too infrequently to have the main pages for each section *be* static content.22:09
qgi1sure, but it is crucial to decide what is "some light content"22:09
dnearyAny thoughts on the front page not having a top-level menu, and having the top-level menu actually *be* the content?22:09
dnearyWhich was my idea22:09
sp3000if already has that smallish block, right, "open source development for internet tablets" ;)22:09
Jaffa2dneary: yes - the top-level sections should have blocks on the front-page either including descriptions or the key content; or both.22:09
bundyoMost people expect a menu22:10
RST38hvery few people need to change top pages anyway22:10
Jaffa2Kind of like the "(Main article)" stuff in wikipedia.22:10
Jaffa2You need the menu anyway, though, for the rest of the site.22:10
dnearybundyo: I always like to hear people back up statements like that :)22:10
RST38hdneary: won't fit.22:10
dnearyTypically it means "I expect a menu"22:10
RST38hnot on the tablet browser anyway22:10
crashanddiebrb, grabbing a beer, anyone want one?22:10
* RST38h expects a menu22:10
* Jaffa2 has to go. WIll read later, I'll have to let someone else keep up-to-date.22:10
bundyodneary: Take it or leave it but it stems from the OS :)22:10
* sp3000 expects beer22:10
-!- Jaffa2 is now known as Jaffa|afk22:10
dnearyOK - how about this: the front page has 5 main blocks + a bottom menu22:11
* lcuk steps out, catch you guys later.22:12
RST38hBOTTOM menu? No.22:12
-!- lcuk is now known as lcuk_afk22:12
X-FadeI think the idea is a good one. Clearly have a few areas in which people can be interested in.22:12
qgi1on the other hand, there is A LOT of stuff going on in the Maemo community, and we could have a very dynamic homepage with the last/best22:12
RST38hTop menu.22:12
qgi1if you are new needing more background/static information, you would get the pointers to go22:12
* RST38h hates opensuse idea. It is another utterly useless pseudocorporate page22:12
@GeneralAntillesYes, the menu should be on top.22:12
dnearyThe main blocks are, roughly: "Downloads", "Solve your problem", "Get involved", "Community news" and "Developers corner"22:12
* RST38h likes iGoogle idea. All the main links on top, main information underneath them, sorted in order of importance22:13
acydlord_aaoRST38h, perhaps, but their landing page is a good start off point for getting to the information you ewant22:13
dnearyThe bottom menu includes something like "Learn more about Maemo", which brings you to the intro page, and the usual legal shit22:13
qgi1this is the wikipedia paradigm (a lot of dynamic content + few static links) vs the Mozilla/Ubuntu paradigm (rather static welcoming page with some news)22:13
dnearyAlthough "Learn more about Maemo" might be good as a 6th front-page block too22:13
RST38hacyd: Once I see their landing page, I move away from it thinking "Nothing relevant here22:13
* Jaffa|afk quickly looks at - that is quite nice. There are clear big links to the main reasons someone's come to the site, plus additional detailed dynamic content below.22:13
Jaffa|afkThe sections themselves aren't a good fit, but I like the concept and the design.22:14
dnearyqgi1: The wikipedia front page has far too much content on there22:14
RST38hJaffa: First thought: "Useless marketing crap"<BACKSPACE><CLICK>22:14
dnearyWe're not a newspaper22:14
qgi1fir instance, first impression in OpenSuse is that there is not much going on22:14
RST38hdneary: what is wrong being a newspaper? people read newspapers!22:15
bundyoqgil: one of the links on the front page is to the wiki :)22:15
dnearySo I prefer the Ubuntu/Mozilla paradigm22:15
Jaffa|afkqgi1: I didn't get that impression, the top news item is dated 4 days ago!22:15
qgi1we generate lots of new stuff everyday22:15
RST38hdnearyL who reads advertising materials?22:15
dnearyRST38h: A newspaper front page will be very different to a community portal22:15
qgi1Jaffa|afk: SURE, AFTER SCROLLING DOWN22:15
Jaffa|afkqgi1: but much of the stuff generated is esoteric, beta quality22:15
@GeneralAntillesI'm with dneary on the mozillo/Ubuntu arrangement.22:15
Jaffa|afkqgi1: Not on my window - trying to worry about "beneath the fold" is a waste of time IMNSHO. Although the top section on is bigger than I would have it.22:16
RST38hdneary: Well, we won't have nude Paris Hilton at the front page, but otherwise why would it be different?22:16
dnearyRST38h: A newspaper front page will have just a banner + news22:16
dnearyWe've got more stuff22:16
@GeneralAntillesAnyway, I think we're bogging a bit with this discussion. Shall we move on to more technical issues and pick up it up later on -community where we can go a bit more in depth?22:16
RST38hdneary: And this is exactly what I would expect from front page22:16
RST38hdneary: Banner + navigation links + news22:16
RST38hdneary: "more stuff" is accessible with a single click on the top menu22:17
dnearyGeneralAntilles: I think there are 2 main currents here, and we probably need some mock-ups to decide22:17
lcuk_afkif there are any nimbled fingered web people try to mock something up of your favorite.  a picture tells a thousand words22:17
RST38hlcuk: And Bundyo has his own design22:18
lcuk_afklol dneary :)22:18
lcuk_afk:) rst22:18
sp3000yeah, opensuse's thing looks nice, if you compare to today it's the same arrangement roughly, m.o just has underemphasized the big cases and whitespace so it looks kinda smashed22:18
* lcuk_afk + kids in bed mode22:18
sp3000(yeah, opensuse's top bit is a tad overemphasized for our case imo)22:19
dnearylcuk_afk: which lol?22:19
dnearyBut I definitely have the impression that we have some nice ideas for the front page now, and have something approaching agreement for the top-level menu we're adopting22:20
dnearywhich is nice22:20
@GeneralAntillesLet's pick it up on -community and get some mockups together, then.22:20
* crashanddie throws a beer at sp3000 22:20
@GeneralAntillesThe midgard wiki22:20
@GeneralAntillesit needs to die for good.22:20
dnearyNow - before we run out of time, I wanted to talk a bit about outdated content - do we update it, or throw it away?22:20
qwerty12_N800GeneralAntilles: +122:20
dnearyDo we pack it away in the attic somewhere and hope its google juice goes down?22:21
sp3000crashanddie: thanks but one will do tonight22:21
dnearyDoes it depend on the content?22:21
@GeneralAntillesOutdated official Nokia docs should be archived and pushed to the back.22:21
RST38hdneary: API refs for the old stuff should live one22:21
@GeneralAntillesThe midgard wiki just needs to die.22:21
dnearyAh - good to see that GeneralAntilles was reading my mind :)22:21
* dneary needs to start to read while typing22:21
@GeneralAntillesWe should do another sweep through to find the last bit of salvageable content, move it to mediawiki and then kill midgard dead.22:21
jotti would prefer to redirect all old content it to new appropriate pages.22:21
dnearyGeneralAntilles: That's what I think too22:21
@GeneralAntillesNow, the question of redirects. (thanks, jott)22:21
dnearyBut I ran into several people in Berlin who were wondering why (their favourite old wiki page) hadn't been moved to the new wiki22:22
@GeneralAntillesThe midgard wiki has generated good page ranks for itself22:22
@GeneralAntillesas can be seen by the old flashing articles that just wont disappear off Google.22:22
-!- lardman|away is now known as lardman|back22:22
dnearyjott: I would agree, but not all the old content has appropriate new content22:22
lardman|backabortive trip into town22:22
X-FadeGeneralAntilles: removing those pages will kill their ranking ;)22:22
lardman|backmock-ups would be good22:22
crashanddiethe easiest way, without deleting anything, would be to add a rule in robots.txt ?22:22
@GeneralAntillesX-Fade, but replacing them with redirects?22:22
jottdneary: in which case either the new content has to be generated or the old content be evaluated if it's worth keeping.22:23
sp3000if it has historical value or utility but is obsolete, add a red box with admonishment and linkage to recent if available; if it's just aged and has no use as such, update / redirect22:23
X-FadeGeneralAntilles: Does the same thing.22:23
qgi1sorry to keep hitting the nail, but I think that we still haven't thought about the consequences of a that will cover the basic & official information of the platform22:23
X-FadeGeneralAntilles: Google will detect the redirect and will remove the ranking too.22:23
@GeneralAntillessp3000, that's mostly what we have now.22:23
Jaffa|afkqgi1: Including API & reference material?22:23
@GeneralAntillesThe current situation is borne of a crappy compromise to keep the old outdated content around.22:23
lardman|backqgi1: do we have any control over that content?22:24
sp3000GeneralAntilles: details on the suckage?22:24
@GeneralAntillescrashanddie, muscle memory. ;)22:24
qgi1all official devloper documentation will go out of maemo.org22:24
@GeneralAntillesqgi1, oh really?22:24
qgi1I man the final/stable docs, the unstable/ongoing work is to be kept in the wiki according to the plan22:24
Jaffa|afk"go out of" meaining "go away from" or "be found out of"?22:24
bundyothat's a new one22:24
Jaffa|afkThat's a game changer.22:24
lardman|backin which case our developers' corner will link to community howtos and to the page for official stuff22:24
Jaffa|afkWhat timescale are we looking at for = community /// = Nokia22:25
@GeneralAntillessp3000, midgard is cluttering the site, cluttering search results and generally getting in the way of productive work while providing very little value.22:25
X-FadeWe will always have a current copy of the documentation, that can be edited by the community.22:25
lardman|backreally, I don't see it changes much, we just change the links22:25
@GeneralAntilleslardman|back, well, it changes the organizational plans for the Development section somewhat.22:25
X-FadeSo we can have even better documentation than the official one :)22:25
sp3000GeneralAntilles: that's not details22:25
crashanddieX-Fade, we have IRC, always better22:26
jottlardman|back: but when you clicked on a link you might get out of the site context and can't navigate back..22:26
qgi1and I think it changes the case of the users landing in just for general information22:26
sp3000I mean specific fail cases, you know, solvables22:26
@GeneralAntillessp3000, take the old flashing articles. They're still the top hit on google even though they've been deleted.22:26
lardman|backjott: yes, that is true, can we frame the off-site content?22:26
lcuk_afkwhat happens when community documentation becomes good enough to be moved into official - or is this not a scenario on the radar?22:26
jottlardman|back: no! no frames! especially considering usage on the tablets ... :.22:26
qgi1I expect people landing in to know already about / the basics and going there to meet community and unstable stuff22:26
lardman|backjott: ah true, silly me22:26
@GeneralAntillesIf we can't use the midgard wiki's page rank to boost the new wiki, then we should just pull whatever is useful out of it and move it to mediawiki then delete midgard.22:26
sp3000yeah, ok, str: google flash n80022:27
Myrttithere's logs of this meeting later on, right?22:27
qgi1the documentation could be developed in taking all the good contributions to the final/stable docs22:27
X-Fadelcuk_afk: Yes, that is being discussed. A way for information to flow back into the official docs.22:27
Myrttigood, phew22:27
sp3000GeneralAntilles: so that should be redirecting22:28
@GeneralAntillessp3000, X-Fade says that the redirect will kill the page rank.22:28
dnearyqgi1: Just to be clear: official stable docs will be hosted on
jottqgi1: i don't think people visiting should/will be aware of "Maemo"22:28
KotCzarnypage rank lost, page rank gained22:28
sp3000GeneralAntilles: because the page rank is going to such great use now22:28
KotCzarnyit will catch up eventuall when people update links22:28
dnearyjott: Indeed - I think they'll mostly be aware of "Nokia N810"22:28
@GeneralAntillesWell, sp3000, I'm thinking we should just kill it outright and not bother with the redirect.22:28
crashanddieGeneralAntilles, actually, we do22:29
lardman|backGeneralAntilles: can will kill it but save the data somewhere so people can eventually port it across?22:29
crashanddieGeneralAntilles, having people fall on 404 is going to be a pain22:29
KotCzarnyhow abut redirect to run search on new site?22:29
qgi1jott: why someone not aware of Maemo should land in then?22:29
KotCzarnythat would save the clicking22:29
lcuk_afkwill official documentation include related threading to community documentation - ie will this be a one way channel into nokia, or can a user come through from into the community to follow a topic22:29
jottqgi1: google, sites linking to it, etc, etc.22:29
lardman|backGeneralAntilles: not just that page though22:30
sp3000crashanddie: it's an error page right now :(22:30
qgi1jott: yes, this is what happens now but what if Nokia pushes seriously
sp3000GeneralAntilles: don't break the web22:30
@GeneralAntilleslardman|back, I'm planning on doing a second sweep to pick up whatever is still there that's usable.22:30
lardman|backGeneralAntilles: ok, cool22:30
@GeneralAntillessp3000, OK, well, we need to figure out which articles actually need redirects.22:31
qgi1but my point was that when you think in homepages like Ubuntu/Mozilla for you need to think that they start providing the basics of the platform and then having a link to Community22:31
* sp3000 flails at his usual example of 404'ing all its product pages linked from retailers the otehr year, that was a pain as a customer loopking for a device22:31
KotCzarnyredirect from 404 to search results22:31
qgi1well, the basics are to be provided by, and "Community" from that perspective is the whole maemo.org22:31
lardman|backqgi1: no harm in our adapting once that site comes online22:32
@GeneralAntillesFortunately I don't think there are too many old wiki pages that really need redirects.22:32
qgi1lardman|back: sure, but I rather plan well once22:32
sp3000KotCzarny: ...and hope the top result isn't the same stupid fail :)22:32
jottqgi1: hmm, well but this assumption would bring some really different use cases.22:32
lardman|backqgi1: agreed, but in the interim we need to have the content that will contain available22:32
KotCzarnysp3000: add to the search string?22:33
KotCzarnyto assure proper results22:33
sp3000assuming the proper result is on that site and not a maemo.org22:33
dnearyGeneralAntilles: A decent start for such a trawl might be and
@GeneralAntillesqgi1, any way we could get some more details on
* lardman|back is off again, will check log later on22:34
-!- lardman|back is now known as lardman|away22:34
qgi1lardman|back: jussi knows better but basically general desc about the platform, howtos, few great downloads, official docs for developers... and the rest linking to and wherver22:34
bundyoqgil: any way we can get the content directly in through some cross-site requests?22:34
sp3000KotCzarny: anyhow, if the superseding url is known, better redirect directly22:34
jotti think having as a major entry point for "Maemo" related stuff will directly affect how should present its content.22:34
bundyoqgil: about
dnearyjott: It all depends22:35
dnearyI want to see more about what's going to be on there, what the focus will be, etc22:35
KotCzarnysp3000: sure, but having useful 404 could help users too22:35
dnearyIt could either be complimentary, or make vast chunks of redundant22:36
jottdneary: yes, sure but it sounds a bit like the priority will shift to (which is understandable for nokia) and in the end it would be good to have it somewhat consistent with the .org site.22:36
dnearyBefore I go (which is soon) I wanted to talk about one other thing22:37
qgi1dneary: basically we can count that Nokia will provide all the basic/official information and marketing for Maemo as a product for consumers and developers22:37
jottlike preventing unnecessary redundancy/confusion when setting up plans now...22:37
dnearyIn the agenda, there's talk of "mushing Tim's content for community live this week"22:37
dnearypushing, not mushing22:37
@GeneralAntillesdneary, not gonna happen.22:37 can concentrate happily on independent community and the beta/unstable stuff22:37
@GeneralAntillesI don't think it really fits with a Mozilla/Ubuntu approach.22:37
dnearyGeneralAntilles: Oh! I hadn't said anything :)22:37
dnearyWhy not?22:37
@GeneralAntillesWell, it'll probably need some revision anyway.22:38
jottit's a bit more of the approach :)22:38
dnearyqgi1: So - "independent community" will cover enthusiasts, users with problems and application developers?22:38
-!- lcuk_afk [] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)]22:38
dnearyGeneralAntilles: I was going to suggest getting a designer involved to actually lay out his content - I think there's still too much text22:39
dnearyGeneralAntilles: So I was going to suggest it not go live this week22:39
@GeneralAntillesdneary, yeah.22:39
@GeneralAntillesI agree. ;)22:39
@GeneralAntillesI think it's based too heavily on our existing setup.22:40
dnearyI just noticed that most of the stuff you put in the meeting agenda is the same as what I proposed :) That's cool22:40
dnearyBasically, I want to avoid paragraphs of text with links as primary navigation22:41
dnearyLook at as a particularly egregious example22:41
@GeneralAntillesqgi1, while you're here, what's the word on the footers, trademark usage, and other legal stuff for
qgi1dneary: in my opinion "independent community" covers from users willing to meet other users for whatever reason until the alternative kernel hackers with everything in btween22:41
KotCzarnywhat is dependent community?22:42
sp3000dneary: or where some links are in a sidebar and some are in the body and some in both22:42
qgi1GeneralAntilles: imho once there is we can "liberate" from 99% of Nokia terms and conditions22:42
dnearysp3000: Indeed22:43
crashanddiewho funds the server and domain?22:43
@GeneralAntillesqgi1, OK, I'm mostly concerned with making sure it's on the radar for the appropriate people in Nokia. ;)22:43
dnearyI think I actually reviewed that page a while back & edited it (/me shame...)22:43
@GeneralAntillescrashanddie, you! Congratulations! :P22:43
qgi1GeneralAntilles: it is, don't worry22:43
bundyoqgil: and probablly 99% of content :)22:43
crashanddieGeneralAntilles, cock22:43
@GeneralAntillesdneary, yeah, I went through Development, too.22:43
@GeneralAntillesWhat a mess.22:43
dnearySo you're a midgard editor now?22:44
@GeneralAntilles_marcell_ upgraded me maybe a month ago.22:44
dnearyqgi1: Someone raised the question of copyright and licence on content earlier22:44
@GeneralAntillesAfter I filled a dozen bugs on the Development section. ;)22:44
dnearyqgi1: It's something worth thinking about now that we've got content (Tim & GA) from outside Nokia sources without copyright assignment22:45
@GeneralAntillesThe wiki's currently got "Copyright © 2002-2008 Nokia Corporation" at the bottom of all pages, too.22:45
andre___adding "and others" would be a very easy fix ;-)22:46
andre___(at least that's what Novell did for Evolution)22:46
X-FadeBut that is just because I pasted it there when making the skin.22:46
sp3000dneary: I think on a structural level, a list of "RESOURCE - explanatory sentence" is the right thing there fwiw22:47
X-FadeIt is not something Nokia told me to put there.22:47
X-FadeSo I guess, I can just remove that?22:47
dnearysp3000: In a development section?22:47
qgi1I wouldn't bother much about that copyright now...22:47
dnearyqgi1: That's what I thought, but it's something that needs thinking about (imagine GA suddenly decides that he doesn't want to publish his content under FDL)22:48
sp3000dneary: yeah /development/, since it's a resource list, that would be the way to arrange such a thing I think22:48
dnearyNo immediate action necessary though22:48
qgi1so... what do you think now about the homepage content? still the same?22:49
qgi1I think it should stress more the life of the community, what is fresh and hot NOW22:50
dnearyI think that we've removed one class of people - the people who are asking the "what is this Maemo?" question22:50
* sp3000 clicks on Intro22:51
dnearyWe're still getting people looking for user forums to solve problems, still getting new developers, still getting people interested in getting involved22:51
RST38hdneary: there should still be an intro page22:52
dnearyI guess we drop "intro", and include some community news on the front page, and have 4 or 5 links to sub-sections for downloads, developers, troubleshooting and community22:52
sp3000quick, someone add some events22:52
RST38hthere is no need to make it default of course22:52
dnearyRST38h: I'm just reacting to what Quim said22:52
* crashanddie adds events22:52
@GeneralAntillessp3000, think it's a bug.22:53
qgi1yes, my point is that the best way to catch them is showing directly the last/best content instead of static blocks explaining bla bla bla22:53
dnearyRST38h: If explains what Maemo is, and we're somehow their community site, then our "what's Maemo?" or "Intro" link will be to
qgi1hot discussion in the mailing lists now22:53
qgi1latest bugs submitted22:53
qgi1latest news22:53
sp3000GeneralAntilles: oh, yeah, clicking on "events" shows three events, two in the future22:53
qgi1hot wiki pages now22:53
@GeneralAntillesmailing lists needs a non-broken website forum.22:53
RST38hdneary: technically yes22:53
qgi1hot downloads now22:53
dnearyI wouldn't put all that on the front page...22:53
dnearyThat'd be the "News" page for me22:53
RST38hdneary: but practically, you won't to keep the user at site22:54
qgi1dneary: why not22:54
sp3000dneary: a lot of that stuff doesn't need to be big22:54
dnearyFront page: maybe a few planet posts, news & announcements22:54
RST38hI would suggest AGAINST putting too much stuff at the front page22:54
RST38hJust have title, top level menu, and news22:54
dnearySeems like (a) too low-level for people coming to the front page, and (b) too much content to have there22:54
sp3000I think it's a question of having a good sense of emphasis22:54
RST38h*if* there is some really cool product released the news will tell about it anyway22:54
KotCzarnynew people can click 'about'22:54
qgi1RST38h: when most of the visitors we are talking about are not especially interested in the news/blogs?22:55
sp3000right now looks cluttery because eveything has the same weight22:55
RST38hqgil: Not suggesting to put blogs at the first page22:55
RST38hqgil: But news - hell, yes22:55
qgi1RST38h: well, if you notice most of the best/top news nowadays come from planet aka blogs22:56
RST38hqgil: if you are a maemo user or a developer and you go to - what do you expect to see most of the time?22:56
sp3000frolicking goats22:56
qgi1RST38h: all the things I told you  :)22:56
RST38hqgil; Then maybe we need a semi-manual filter that will place some of them onto the main page22:56
RST38hqgil: but can't palce the whole planet onto the main page of course22:56
qgi1RST38h: we have this semi-manual filter, the news karma22:56
X-FadeRST38h: You need to know that most news on in the future will come from the community.22:56
RST38hqgil: Doesn't work well22:57
KotCzarnydoes it really matter what's on the first page?22:57
RST38hqgil; Not right now anyway22:57
sp3000RST38h: it doesn't?22:57
KotCzarnyreturning users will have bookmarks22:57
RST38hsp3000: no, looks artificial22:57
RST38hKot: they won't. I don't.22:57
qgi1RST38h: I read almost everything humans write about Maemo and I'd say the new karma works pretty well22:57
KotCzarnyas long everything is 1-2 clicks from the main page, there could be anything22:57
RST38hqgil: well if it does, then use it to filter posts onto the main page, by all means22:58
KotCzarny(as long main page isn't >100kb)22:58
qgi1top 5 news in the home are usually the top 5 news I'd recomend22:58
* dneary votes for more frolicking goats22:58
* sp3000 should file a noscript bug on karma, it gives two heart-thumbsdown combos, one with zero counts22:58
RST38hX-Fade: doesn't matter what the news source is. If the news is worth reading - publish it to the main page.22:58
KotCzarnydneary: nit pairing service?22:58
sp3000dneary: how about a mockup, too!22:58
dnearysp3000: I'll leave that to you, as the proposer22:59
* RST38h agrees on the goats but we really need both genders22:59
@GeneralAntillesWhen Nokia ships WinCE, we can switch to frolicking goats.22:59
RST38hqgil: Any news on Nokia plans with WinMobile? =)22:59
dnearyqgi1: I agree with you - top 5 news stories are good22:59
sp3000dneary: how about
RST38hdneary: Why top 5?22:59
dnearyRST38h: Why not?23:00
qgi1now imagine top 5 bugs and features requests according to Bug Jar23:00
@GeneralAntilleshearts/thumbs for news stories works fine in my view.23:00
RST38hdneary: The page scrolls down, you can have top 2023:00
dnearyqgi1: Top 5 bugs/features by votes?23:00
dnearyOr most recent?23:00
qgi1last 3 active threads in the lists23:00
RST38hqgil: not of any interest on the main page23:00
@GeneralAntillesNo need to bug jar that.23:00
@GeneralAntillesJust grab it directly from bugzilla.23:00
dneary5 most recently reported bugs doesn't make much sense to me23:00
dnearyIt'll be mostly random23:00
RST38hqgil; We all already KNOW top 5 feature requests23:00
sp3000dneary, yeah, it's "activity"23:00
RST38hAnd a lot of people know what the top 5 bugs are23:00
qgi1last 3 wiki pages created23:00
sp3000qgi1: top 5 bugs by anything but most recent would be an annoying list that never goes anywhere, eventually, on any bugzilla23:01
KotCzarnywho would be the target audience of the main page?23:01
RST38hJust have news at the main page, ok?23:01
KotCzarnydevs, users or newbies?23:01
RST38hDo not place anything else there, except for Events maybe23:01
sp3000qgi1: that's just the dynamic of such systems ;)23:01
qgi1when did I say 5 most recent bugs? I said the most important according to Bug Jar  :)23:01
@GeneralAntillesThe list that never changes.23:02
sp3000qgi1: yeah, I'm saying recent is ok, others will probably suck23:02
dnearythat's why I asked whether you meant most recent or by votes23:02
KotCzarny(or search bots)23:02
qgi1then recent, I just mean that we should give visibility to what is going on23:02
qgi1last created projects at garage23:02
dnearyAnyway - I have to go, people23:02
@GeneralAntillesogg, gps, 12/24, Nokia involved in Bugzilla23:02
RST38hYou all do understand that having 5 topmost bugs and feature requests at the main page will be VERY annoying for the regulars?23:03
RST38hAnd for newbies it will be meaningless23:03
qgi1the last of everything and just one top?23:03
sp3000RST38h: yes :) but most recent 5 are ...stimulating and fresh!23:03
sp3000(like frolicking goats)23:03
qgi1anything new is calling for attention23:04
sp3000ok, no more beer durnig irc meetings for me23:04
crashanddieyou're the frolicking goat23:04
@GeneralAntillesfrolicking sp3000s23:04
* crashanddie opens another beer23:04
dnearyHonestly, top 5 bugs, latest mailing list threads, wiki pages - I think that would be useful on a News or Community page, but not the front page23:04
@GeneralAntillesI'm with dneary.23:04
qgi1I think a good collection and presentation of the new stuff would be way more interesting than a rather static home with some news23:04
sp3000dneary, think small, like "Other Mozilla Software" on small23:04
RST38hdneary: latest mailing list threads *may* be useful at the front page except that not all of them are relevant23:05
@GeneralAntillesLet's get some mockups and see what looks overloaded and what doesn't though.23:05
dnearyqgi1: What would be useful for the front page would be applications23:05
KotCzarnyhow about making main page configurable after login?23:05
dnearyTop 5, most recent23:05
@GeneralAntillesKotCzarny, if you want to code it up.23:05
KotCzarnydoesn't wiki allow for that?23:05
@GeneralAntillesOtherwise, no.23:05
dnearyMost active garage projects23:05
sp3000meh, configuration is a cop-out when you can't figure out what to do :P23:05
@GeneralAntillessp3000 ++23:06
dnearyOr if we had a way to measure the activity of wiki pages (rank them by number of edits in the past 2 days or something) and have the most active wiki pages - that might be useful23:06
KotCzarnysure, i can23:06
RST38hthis is too weird23:06
crashanddiethat's doable23:06
RST38honly interesting for wiki fans23:06
dnearyRST38h: It is a sign of where people are swarming, and what's hot right now in the community23:07
dnearyWhich is, I think, what Quim's trying to get across23:07
sp3000(hot like fr... er)23:07
RST38hyea, but realistically, who would like to see that?23:07
bundyothis is just getting weirder and weirder :)23:07
* crashanddie raises hand23:07
KotCzarnyrst38h: most likely wiki admins23:07
@GeneralAntillesIllustrating community activity is a good plan.23:07
RST38hThen let wiki admins have their own main page23:07
dnearyFor example, last week the top 5 wiki pages would probablu have been "Improving", "Maemo Summit 2008", "100Days/Sprint 5"23:08
crashanddiehot spots is the best way to get people involved23:08
crashanddiethere's no worse cooler for a new and fresh and aspiring maemo hacker to get involved with something that is completely and utterly dead23:08
KotCzarnystill, who is the target audience of the main page?23:08
dnearyGeneralAntilles: Now can you think of a way to order that list by number of edits per page?23:08
RST38hDon't you think that the main page should contain information people actually READ?23:09
dnearyKotCzarny: People who don't know what they're looking for23:09
@GeneralAntillesdneary, I'm not mediawiki coder.23:09
qgi1the target audience is people willing to join / follow / know about the Maemo community and whatever it produces23:09
KotCzarnydneary: so that excludes devs and regulars23:09
RST38hNot some arcane autogenerated statistics that show the measure of community onvolvement?23:09
sp3000dneary: parse atom, tansmogrify, done23:09
KotCzarnyie. most of us here23:09
sp3000transmogrify, even23:09
crashanddieKotCzarny, if goes live, the page goes into a whole different direction imho... It's already people who have a certain interest in the underlying community/projects23:09
dnearyKotCzarny: Users looking for applications, developers looking for information on writing a Maemo application, new enthusiasts interested in getting involved, or tablet users with a problem they'd like to see fixed23:09
RST38hqgil: Are you absolutely sure the main page should be a marketing instrument?23:09
qgi1something as simple as shows interesting last 5 results23:10
qgi1"marketing instrument" is a good one23:10
sp3000of course if mediawiki had a way to do the transmogrification step and export it in atom that'd be nicer23:10
qgi1what is (or what is not) a marketing instrument?23:10
crashanddiesp3000, that's really not hard to code23:10
RST38hBecause if becomes a marketing instrument, then there is no more reason for me (personally) to go there23:10
sp3000crashanddie: yeah23:11
qgi1showing the activity of the community in its various ways is IMO the best way to show to anybody how exciting this community is and where to find what you are looking for23:11
dnearyRST38h: That's what web pages are23:11
KotCzarnyrst38h, but that's only for main page, rest of the site is your regular community content23:11
* RST38h would think it was for the Intro page23:11
dnearyqgi1: Last 5 pages includes a lot of stuff which is either transitory or doesn't get many edits23:11
* crashanddie hands RST38h a beer, chill bro23:11
dnearyHeavily edited pages, if we could get them, would be better IMHO23:12
@GeneralAntillesRST38h, so, you want VGBA highlighted but not the wiki or bugzilla?23:12
sp3000I don't think it's realistic to expect any drilled down utility from a site front page23:12
crashanddiedneary, I can work on that23:12
qgi1even more transtory and with less edits if nobody is aware of them23:12
RST38hGeneral: Actually, I do not want VGBA highlighted either23:12
@GeneralAntillesThen why are you asking people to rate it?23:12
RST38hGeneral: I just want top navigation menu and news at the main page23:12
RST38hGeneral: How is it related to main page?23:12
KotCzarnyi'm with rst38h23:12
qgi1can you please sites you are following everyday? URLs please23:13
@GeneralAntillesWell, Pearls are on the front page.23:13
@GeneralAntillesAnyway, whatever.23:13
sp3000hot apps, recent bugs, and such, are a kind of news23:13
* crashanddie has the feeling this conversation has top speed of naught23:13
RST38hGeneral: Oh, the pearls...You can remove the pearls from the main page, no argument from me23:14
sp3000crashanddie: of a dreadn...aught!23:14
KotCzarnyaren't pearls interesting for new users?23:14
crashanddieyeah, the pearl is a waste of bandwidth if you ask me23:14
bundyoi'm honest23:14
dnearyqgi1: I will say again: there is a place for latest wiki pages created, but perhaps not the front page23:14
RST38hThey are, but it is fine to have them at the download page only IMHO23:14
crashanddiebecause sadly, it never really relates to something that's actually interesting23:14
dnearyTo use the wikipedia example - they have "In the news", but they're not necessarily new pages23:15
crashanddieHaving a top 5 "new pages" is useless23:15
qgi1I bet most of the sites you deal with on a daily basis get most of what you want in the home alon23:15
crashanddiethere's already a Special:Newpages page, that's just duplicated information23:15
crashanddiehaving the top most edited pages of the day/week/month, now there's something that is relevant information (be it on the main page or not)23:16
KotCzarnyi have a script that aggregates news for me23:16
KotCzarnyfrom diff. pages23:16
@GeneralAntillesWell, I think we should continue this on -community.23:16
@GeneralAntillesGet more people involved, get a deeper discussion going.23:16
crashanddieI have CloudReader23:16
@GeneralAntilles'bout time to wrap this up anyway.23:16
dnearycrashanddie: Before I edited them, I discovered some nice apps with the pearls23:16
crashanddieoh cock, I completely forgot to package it and put in extras23:16
dnearyI'm definitely gone now23:17
crashanddiedneary, take care23:17
dnearyThe wife will kill me :)23:17
dnearyNight all23:17
crashanddiedneary, kill her first23:17
KotCzarnyget her with chloroform23:17
qgi1night to me too, it's getting late in Helsinki23:17
KotCzarnyor ether23:17
jottbut most of the sites visited daily are news sites. should be a news site or an entry point?23:17
crashanddiechloroform doesn't kill23:17
qgi1will try to draw a mockup with pencil  :)23:17
crashanddieqgi1, it's only 1123:17
bundyonight qgil23:17
@GeneralAntillesAlready, good enough.23:17
@GeneralAntillesX-Fade, stick the logs up, please. :P23:18
@GeneralAntillesThanks everybody!23:18
crashanddiewould't 2 or 3 PM UTC be a better time for everyone?23:18
RST38hjott: Entry point is where I expect to see the news every morning23:18
qgi1jott: "news" is just a piece of "activity"23:18
KotCzarnyi'm getting up around 3pm est23:18
@GeneralAntillescrashanddie, getting the US people in here on a Saturday didn't work out so well.23:18
qgi1and show(casing) the activity of the Maemo community is imho the best entry point23:18
qgi1crashanddie: my clock says 00:1923:19
crashanddieqgi1, oh, my bad23:19
bundyomine too23:19
jottqgi1: not if i want to get to development information or get my problem solved :/23:19
-!- Jaffa|afk is now known as Jaffa223:19
@GeneralAntillescrashanddie, mostly a one-off here, anyway.23:19
crashanddiethese meetings should be held in a timeless manner23:19
crashanddieor timely23:19
qgi1jott: no homepage will give you directly the doc page or the FAQ you ar looking for23:19
@GeneralAntillesI wanted to get everybody in one place to kick off the discussion.23:19
* Jaffa2 quite likes the idea of a rolling average of bug/downloads/wiki activity to show where people are swarming. Would've highlighted the recent activity in #176. Might or might not be front page worthy, but it's a cool idea.23:20
jottqgi1: no, but if i have to go trough a list of 100 news before i get to the relevant link i would be disappointed23:20
RST38hjott: for dev information there would be a huge link in the top menu: Development23:20
sp3000I think it's some big topics on top (300px or so), then all the activity in the world23:20
RST38hAnd the Development page will have references on top23:20
KotCzarnynavigation on top23:20
KotCzarnythen do whatever you like23:21
qgi1jott: between a static page with links saying "Developers" and "Support" or a dynamic page showing those links together with latest/coolest e.g. developer docs and discussion threads, I think the latter gives me a better impression of what can I get from there23:21
crashanddiea snapshot of the content is always better than a best-as-you-can description23:22
Jaffa2qgi1: I've got "latest" RSS feeds aggregated for the wiki (RecentChanges) and Bugzilla. It's not very helpful. Some kind of rolling average of activity would work very well, though. (Could be a definition of "latest cool stuff" ;-))23:22
RST38hqgil: 1. Developer docs are updated once every several months so there won't be latest and greatest23:22
RST38hqgil: 2. a lot of discussion threads are pretty irrelevant. Do you really want to see darius in the news every moring?23:22
crashanddieis he still on the ML?23:23
RST38hSo, why not limit the main page to the general news?23:23
@GeneralAntillesNot lately23:23
@GeneralAntillesWe've got Mark Haury now.23:23
RST38hcrash: who knows...maybe he is lurking23:23
sp3000yeah, dev docs and such is one of the big topic links, not on the activity part except by accident23:23
bundyoand make it customizable :)23:23
-!- crashanddie is now known as DariusJack23:23
-!- KotCzarny is now known as JackDarius23:23
RST38hBefore he gets away!23:23
* bundyo runs around23:24
* qwerty12_N800 murders DariusJack with a glock23:24
JackDariushey hey hey23:24
JackDariusdon't kill my alt23:24
qgi1 is a developer doc created few days ago - remember that official stable docs won't be part of maemo.org23:24
bundyowhat happened to the big friendly trout? :)23:24
sp3000(nice meeting log)23:24
-!- DariusJack [n=crashand@SecuraBit/listener/crashanddie] has left #maemo-meeting ["aaarrgghhh"]23:24
-!- JackDarius is now known as KotCzarny23:24
-!- crashanddie [n=crashand@SecuraBit/listener/crashanddie] has joined #maemo-meeting23:24
Jaffa2qgi1: And use the "Category:Development" to group it?23:25
qwerty12_N800bundyo: it went with advent of guns :p23:25
qgi1RST38h: about discussions, if they are irrelevant they go away fast - long threads get more timing in the home23:25
RST38hqgil: Oh but they don't...a good flame war can go forever23:25
Jaffa2qgi1: I was thinking that. The longest threads are when there've been people like darius or some kind of trolling. The best have sometimes been the shortest.23:25
Jaffa2What RST38h said :)23:25
crashanddie+ We need to educate mailing lists posters to: 1/ learn how to use citation properly 2/ not have discussions with over 20-30 replies, at some point, just rename it23:26
crashanddiexyz (was: zyx)23:26
qgi1if the community decides to discuss about something irrelevant through 5 days and 67 posts... the community deserves to have that sh** in the home as well  :)23:26
bundyoThey're uneducatable :)23:26
RST38hYou cannot educate mailing list posters23:27
crashanddiesure you can23:27
RST38hqgil: Please, be merciful on the community23:27
sp3000the news you see now will have more emphasis quite naturally since they have syndicable content; bug reports and mail threads don't work so well for that so they'll tend to appear an order of magnitude smaller23:27
crashanddiemoderate the list23:27
sp3000I think that'll work out fine23:27
bundyoClose the mailing list? :)23:27
* crashanddie strokes modappbot23:27
@GeneralAntillesqgi1, but it's usually not the "Community" that decides, it's 1 or 2 idiots and another half-dozen suckers.23:27
qgi1RST38h: I am. I was just adapting the adagio "All countries have the government they deserve"  :)23:27
crashanddieGeneralAntilles, language23:28
sp3000meh, those threads pass too23:28
crashanddieqgi1, going to washington anytime soon?23:28
qgi1GeneralAntilles: there are mailing lists when a single post from a single person with reputation makes shut up everybody23:28
sp3000if they don't, them appearing as one line on a front page isn't going to be the biggest problem23:29
qgi1in any case, most of the times the discussions are good and useful and they would provide interesting snapshots of real community activity in the home23:29
sp3000and that's all the space an email thread can really have there23:29
Jaffa2+ number of replies.23:29
@GeneralAntillesWe need to fix the forums at some point first.23:29
Jaffa2...and link to the forums - which are missing -community23:30
crashanddieGeneralAntilles, why op?23:30
RST38hOk, I have got an idea23:30
crashanddieGeneralAntilles, stroke e-peen much?23:30
sp3000if we were thinking of pushing all individual msg subjects or body content, then I'd worry more23:30
@GeneralAntillescrashanddie, just 'cause I was fixing the topic and am really lazy.23:30
X-FadeGeneralAntilles: bergie is going to look at that on monday..23:30
RST38hHow to connect Quim's idea of marketing stuff with the popular idea of having usable main page23:30
-!- mode/#maemo-meeting [-o GeneralAntilles] by GeneralAntilles23:30
crashanddieoh you tool23:30
crashanddieyou forgot to op me first23:30
RST38hqgil: How about having just the overal STATS at the main page, in cute colorful boxes with icons?23:31
KotCzarnyand girls23:31
sp3000RST38h: numbers are not content23:31
RST38hqgil: Examples: Number of users, Number of projects, Number of wiki edits, etc23:31
Jaffa2Interesting. Like "4 new developer threads today/this week/..."?23:31
qgi1RST38h: why a page with "real" and community generated dynamic content is for you more marketing than a mostly static page with well measured descriptions?23:31
RST38hqgil: And when you click on these, you get to the actual lists23:31
crashanddieQuite frankly, I know this might sound elitist, but I was toying with the idea of having applications undergo a "minimal maemo quality test"23:32
RST38hqgil: For me, the main page should only contain stuff that I read23:32
crashanddieI mean, before they get endorsed on the front page, or something23:32
sp3000yeah, I don't use the "todo" functionality on my s60 exactly because all it will tell me on the idle screen is "you have 5 open todo items", like I f****g care, I want actionable data :)23:32
RST38hqgil: None of the above stuff is of any interest to a regular or a newbie23:32
RST38hqgil: So I suggest a half-way idea23:32
bundyoWhich will work with half of the users23:33
RST38hqgil: Let us include the auto-generated stats but keep their screen estate to the minimum23:33
RST38hqgil: To make them visible to whoever they should be visible to use color emphasis and catchy icons23:33
RST38hqgil: And clicking on them will show the whole information you would like to show23:34
Jaffa2sp3000: true, but the only data on your TODO is stuff you'd've entered (unless you were using - which I've not got round to finishing). The stuff on is either latest, which is variable quality - and good stuff can be hidden too quickly; or ranked somehow. Either by age, activity, karma, ...23:34
crashanddiehow about we create both and we ask for a vote?23:34
* Myrtti rolls eyes at the "and girls" comment23:34
crashanddieMyrtti, ?23:34
sp3000yeah, frolicking goats is where it's at23:34
sp3000Jaffa2: yeah, but numbers are super-duper-useless23:35
jottand keep in mind to reduce actual load times on embedded devices for the start page :)23:35
Jaffa2sp3000: it shows the activityness which qgi1 was concerned about.23:35
sp3000and me entering the data doesn't make my todo list of homogenous quality ;)23:36
jottwhen we have 1000 items and it takes 1 hour to load this would be unfortunate23:36
sp3000Jaffa2: not to a human23:36
sp3000it's not interesting unless there are words, srsly23:36
Jaffa2sp3000: I didn't say it was *interesting*; I said it showed there was activity (not what that activity was).23:36
RST38hnumbers are there just to show an overall statistic23:36
RST38hclick on the number - an dyou get the whole thing23:37
crashanddieI will note RST38h is really trying hard to get to a consensus here... He went from "strongly opposed", to "what about a coloured stats box", to "don't let it have too much real estate, please"23:37
GeneralAntillesThrash it out on -community.23:37
qgi1RST38h: "None of the above stuff is of any interest to a regular or a newbie" - well, it's a picture about the Maemo community now and there is probably no content that will make happy all the users visiting that page23:37
sp3000Jaffa2: we could show activity in a downloadable spreadsheet, too ;)23:37
RST38hqgil: I think people have given enough reasons why it is not of any interest23:38
crashanddieqgi1, if I'm getting this right, you'd like the real consumer newbie to dash out on, right? And then the community/development interested newbie to tiptoe on, right?23:38
qgi1then why ITt interests to so many people?23:38
Jaffa2sp3000: We could. I thought the stats idea might mitigate qgi1's concern as to seeing a vibrant community when reaching the homepage. I think there's been a number of points that showing the content itself *can* be offputting23:38
qgi1crashanddie: yes23:38
RST38hthe main and overall reason - there is no way to insure that all these reported changes )wiki pages, threads, discussion etc) are relevant23:38
RST38hqgil: itt is a discussion forum23:39
RST38hnot the same as maemo.org23:39
* Jaffa2 comes back to the rolling average of activity to represent swarming. But a quick look shows the technical detail of that being harder than necessary.23:39
RST38halthough may include a discussion forum23:39
crashanddieqgi1, yeah, I'm with you on that... And in such an approach, I really don't get why having live snapshots of what's happening *within* the community would be such a problem23:39
qgi1for many people is a place to discuss on a daily basis too23:39
sp3000Jaffa2: yeah content isn't problem-free, but I don't see what would replace it23:39
crashanddieRST38h, could you try to explain why?23:39
RST38hcrash: Why != itt?23:40
Jaffa2For example, picking out recent changes in Category:Community or Category:Development means polling Special:RecentChanges and then correlating the pages against the category, and keeping score. No easy means of Special:RecentChanges/Category:Development AFAICT23:40
RST38hJaffa: Midgard is already too slow23:40
bundyoWhy colored boxes then? Why not just a sentence like "There are 4 new developer threads, 3 new garage projects and so on" somewhere with links on every part? No real estate taken, (maybe a sign look here) and all the numbers are there :)23:40
RST38hJaffa: Stop master-planning on how to kill it =)23:40
crashanddieRST38h, "if I'm getting this right, you'd like the real consumer newbie to dash out on, right? And then the community/development interested newbie to tiptoe on, right? [quim answered yes] yeah, I'm with you on that... And in such an approach, I really don't get why having live snapshots of what's happening *within* the community would be such a problem"23:40
sp3000you don't do that live on requests, yeah :)23:40
Jaffa2RST38h: Agreed. This should be static content generated every 15 minutes, hour or something. People doing dynamic websites are being silly when they do things inline ;-)23:41
RST38hbundyo: sentences are too long and non-colored boxes are not cactchy enough (this is what qgil wants afaik)23:41
sp3000hm, dunno if you want to go separating wiki cats, that may expand things too far23:41
RST38hcrash: no, no23:41
crashanddieJaffa2, not if you have a good framework that will do the caching for you23:41
Jaffa2sp3000: Only those two wiki categories (from a quick look)23:41
Jaffa2crashanddie: yeah, fine - we don't though. We've got midgard.23:41
GeneralAntillesHow about we get some mockups together and see what looks good?23:41
RST38hcrash: what I want is a list of 7-9 activities at the top (such as Community Bugs Docs etc)23:41
sp3000yeah, that's details, depends on how much a layout can usefully accommodate23:41
qgi1GeneralAntilles: fully agree23:41
sp3000RST38h: that doesn't conflict23:42
crashanddieJaffa2, I have a framework [carbonPHP, shameless self promotion] that can be written "inline", as you say, and will handle any load without a problem23:42
GeneralAntillesRight now we're moving exactly nowhere with this discussion. ;)23:42
RST38hcrash: So a newbie will always go to the relevant place23:42
jottfor me the main problem with news items on the start page is, that it clutters and distracts...23:42
qgi1in software code talks and in web development...  :)23:42
crashanddieRST38h, why couldn't we have both?23:42
RST38hcrash: But under these links I just want news. Because if you are not searching for something, you will most likely just want to know what is new23:42
jottat least when having such a broad variety of news.23:42
crashanddieRST38h, I don't believe they are mutually exclusive23:42
qgi1jott: distracts from what?23:42
sp3000RST38h: but the front page can't possibly be the page with the useful content for those, just the starting pointers23:42
RST38hcrash: Who they?23:42
RST38hsp3000: as I said, a top menu:
Jaffa2Doing a convincing web design needs pictures. Doing a convincing software architecture requires a well thought-out set of bullet points.23:43
jottqgi1: from the proposed 6 "main links".23:43
crashanddieRST38h, general news (aggregated blogs, and what not) and live community snapshots, and a navigation bar23:43
qgi1jott: the main links are still there23:43
RST38hcrash: Ah, there is a reason23:43
jottyes. that's why i said "clutter" and "distraction"23:43
sp3000RST38h: what's the benefit of having all that on the front page?23:44
RST38hcrash: If it is only the news, you can have them in a single column top to bottom23:44
qgi1jott: a lot of clutter and distraction depends basically on design23:44
qgi1and this is why I agree with GeneralAntilles with th mockups23:44
bundyocustomizable front page... again? :)23:44
jottqgi1: have you any reference in mind?23:44
RST38hcrash: if it is several types of news, you have to create multiple columns - makes tetx less readbale (especially on n8x0) and wastes space23:44
sp3000RST38h: (the content that is, not the linkage to the major topics; that linkage should be emphasized more than you have imo)23:44
RST38hsp3000: there are several pages mocked up there23:45
GeneralAntillesbundyo, I'm against the customizable front page.23:45
sp3000(for the biggest topics anyway)23:45
GeneralAntillesToo heavy for the tablets, too much work to setup, mostly pointless.23:45
RST38hsp300: I compressed them all into a single mockup23:45
crashanddieRST38h, I'm quite sure that's not correct...23:45
RST38hcrash: look at slashfot23:45
sp3000RST38h: I'm not sure what the argument is about then, you seem to be agreeing23:45
crashanddieGeneralAntilles, plus javascript drag and drop is a hell on touch devices... No screen panning23:45
qgi1jott: no when you askd but then I tried with and... surprise!23:45
bundyonot heavy if it is build on the server, not that flexible but still23:45
sp3000RST38h: except with the trailing content of the front page being a bunch of activity syndication, which doesn't take anything away from it23:46
bundyoi'm not using drag and drop for this reason23:46
GeneralAntillesbundyo, it's mostly pointless anyway.23:46
GeneralAntillesIf I want stuff I'm just going to go direct to the stuff.23:46
jottqgi1: ok so hide news somewhere deep below that might be ok. but then again, load the page on your tablet.23:46
GeneralAntillesPlanet, Bugzilla, Wiki, Garage, whatever.23:46
bundyookay, then decide what should be on it for everyone :P23:46
RST38hsp3000: yes but who needs trailing content? who will see it?23:46
RST38hit is somewhere at the bottom23:46
GeneralAntillesbundyo, that's why I want some mockups.23:47
GeneralAntillesSince we're not getting anywhere here.23:47
qgi1jott: I'm just pointing out that another successful community project goes for a home reflecting the comm unity activity NOW23:47
crashanddieI'll get thinking about this23:47
sp3000RST38h: the major topics linkage will take maybe third of a desktop screenful I should hope23:47
jottqgi1: i still thinking of the "i visit with my tablet"-use case..23:47
GeneralAntillesAnyway, I really like bundyo's look anyway. :D23:47
crashanddieBut, there's a shitload of space on the page that is just wasted23:47
RST38hqgil: aren't general News reflecting community activity?23:47
qgi1jott: sure: design work23:47
sp3000and having the activity content doesn't hurt :)23:48
crashanddieRST38h, no, general news are reflecting week-old news, and blog posts about guys talking about concerts23:48
qgi1RST38h: a part of it: the bloggers23:48
jottqgi1: no. not only design. it's the time it needs to be parsed and displayed.23:48
RST38hcrash: judging from planet, it is only 30% true23:48
RST38hqgil: but don't you think it is a sufficient part?23:48
bundyojott: excluding JS it is fairly fast23:49
GeneralAntillesWell, hopefully the council blog will improve the overview news a bit.23:49
RST38hfor the min page anyway?23:49
qgi1RST38h: no  :)23:49
crashanddiebut indeed, after this discussion, maybe having a /Community page isn't a bad idea23:49
jottlol made microb crash :)23:50
qgi1jott: it's again about design23:50
RST38hthen maybe you should follow livejournal example and hire a secretary who will scan mailing lists on daily basis and create summaries? =)23:50
crashanddiejott, of course it did23:50
jottyeah like leaving out irrelevant news :)23:50
crashanddiejott, you're not spreading firefox, you're spreading microbs23:50
jottgood design :p23:50
RST38hjott: I am sure will do the same =)23:50
jottok sorry :)23:50
crashanddieRST38h, actually... I think that job would be for GeneralAntilles :P23:51
crashanddieoh good lord, lots of coppers chasing bad guys in London tonight23:51
* jott just don't like the idea of it.. but well other people other opinions..23:51
RST38hcrash: hush! ;)23:51
GeneralAntillesI was thinking about that, actually.23:51
GeneralAntillesBut I don't think it would work.23:51
crashanddieof course it wouldn't23:51
crashanddieyou can't get good summaries23:51
RST38htakes a dedicated person with a LOT of free time23:52
crashanddiethere's always people who are going to be pissed23:52
RST38hthose are rare23:52
GeneralAntillesWell, I wasn't thinking summaries23:52
crashanddie"you left out this subject, and this, and this"23:52
GeneralAntillesjust promoting certain threads23:52
RST38hcrash: actually, it is perfectly doable but takes a shitload of time23:52
GeneralAntillesWhich the news <3/thumbs would be nice for23:52
GeneralAntillesBut can't really translate that to mailing lists.23:52
crashanddieagain, how do you promote a thread into a read-only form, to which no one can reply directly23:53
GeneralAntillesThe forums on the website. . . .23:53
jottGeneralAntilles: collaborative spamassasin :)23:53
qgi1alright, my conclusion for today: I have gone through many web projects including community ones ---> at the end mockups is what counts23:53
crashanddiethat's the problem with mailing lists, either you're on them, or you're not23:53
crashanddieqgi1, good night23:53
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GeneralAntillesAlright, wrap up, move on, hit -community with some mockups. :)23:54
* crashanddie opens another beer23:54
sp3000stop tempting me with all these feeds to mockup with actual content, I don't have the time23:54
jottyeah conclusion: don't discuss about this at all, just make mockups :)23:54
qwerty12_N800crashanddie: +1 :p23:55
crashanddieI guess you could say... Mock the discussion?23:55
GeneralAntillesjott, get some mockups and discuss them. <_<23:55
Jaffa2GeneralAntilles: Bah, date format still broken. No "Community" forum. Stills seems out-of-sync with mailing list. In fact, *definitely* out-of-sync.23:55
Myrttimmm crackers and cheese23:55
GeneralAntillesJaffa2, yeah, it's broken.23:55
GeneralAntillesBut still.23:55
jottGeneralAntilles: no, get more mockups and in the end vote :)23:55
jottno discussion needed :P23:55
jottpointless anyway in most cases ;)23:56
Jaffa2Good web mockups take a *long* time, unless you end up discussing pretty CSS designs (which also take time).23:56
KotCzarnyjaffa2, then do pencil one23:56
KotCzarny(or ps one)23:56
bundyoor just some photoshoped pictures  ;)23:57
jottyeah ps mockups are enough in most cases.23:57
GeneralAntillesNothing too involved.23:57
Jaffa2Pencil/Inkscape/Gimp still all take time.23:57
KotCzarnystart with the site you like?23:57
jottJaffa2: sure..23:57
Jaffa2GeneralAntilles: I think you overestimate people's ability to look past look and see concept. Also, as quim pointed out: if the look is good, that can make/break a feel.23:58
bundyoyup, they take, but less than the same plus actually layouting it and coding it :)23:58
GeneralAntillesWell, we're not getting anywhere fast here. :P23:58
Jaffa2You thought it would be easy? ;-)23:58
GeneralAntillesBut there's no sense bogging down23:59
GeneralAntillesPick it up on -community23:59
KotCzarnyjust make html blocks (without layout) and tableize/css them?23:59
jottjust encourage more people to do mockups.23:59
jottand i think -community has a too small reach23:59
KotCzarnyespecially most are hackers23:59
jottGeneralAntilles: council blog about it!23:59
KotCzarnywho don't like writing docks/mockups23:59
--- Log closed Sun Sep 28 00:00:02 2008
--- Log opened Sun Sep 28 00:00:02 2008
--- Day changed Sun Sep 28 2008
Jaffa2GeneralAntilles: I don't disagree. I just think it'll end up with no decision makers. Who *will* make the decision?00:00
jottjust really "call for mockups"00:00
jottwithout other "issues"00:00
GeneralAntillesJaffa2, us, the benevolent dictators of course! :D00:00
Jaffa2KotCzarny: I know how *I'd* do it, it still takes time to make a compelling design, and tell a story which encompasses the use cases. There's no point spending time on a design - which has the look & feel integrated - if the consensus on the layout and structure of the site is so different.00:01
KotCzarnyjaffa2: how about making 80% which take 20% of time?00:01
bundyoI can edit the mockup thread on itt to add all that want to in the first post and a link to -community subscription :)00:01
Jaffa2For example, now that we know the primary, definitive developer documentation is going to be on - that changes how I hope we approach the layout.00:01
Jaffa2GeneralAntilles: Good. That's what I was thinking :-)00:01
jottJaffa2: as there is no consensus of structure and layout you can just go ahead and make a good mockup to convince the "masses" :)00:01
Jaffa2jott: indeed :)00:02
* Jaffa2 would rather sleep, however.00:02
jottGeneralAntilles: i think it's a really nice council task to encourage as many people as possible to do mockups.00:03
jotti bet nokia folks are also willing to give some small incentive :)00:03
jottit seems n810 grow on trees :D00:04 goats00:04
sp3000as previously illustrated00:04
KotCzarnyfood. brb00:04
bundyookay guys, time for me to hug the pillow00:07
qwerty12_N800night bundyo00:07
bundyonight all00:08
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andre___oh. we finished? cool :)00:11
andre___i have to admit that i didn't spend the entire time in front of this computer :)00:12
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GeneralAntillesandre___, not a big deal, it was a lot of arguing without a whole lot of results. :P00:13
andre___yeah. that's the definition of "meeting"00:14
* andre___ should edit the wikipedia entry ;-)00:14
andre___well. first meeting. it's quite normal.00:14
andre___btw, which timezone are you in? 18:16h?00:15
andre___fits :)00:16
bergie01:16am here... some of us would have other things to do on a Saturday night ;-)00:16
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GeneralAntillesMy plan for getting more US people involved didn't work out so well.00:17
bergieyep... I propose seeking more sensible times for next meetings00:17
* GeneralAntilles shrugs.00:17
GeneralAntillesLike I said before, there's a lot of people in a lot of timezones.00:17 for instance first asking who will attend and then choosing the time based on that00:17
GeneralAntillesSometimes some meeting will inconvenience a certain subset of those people00:18
GeneralAntillesThe goal is to distribute that inconvenience as much as possible.00:18
bergieyep, but I think most of us are in Europe00:18
GeneralAntillesand most of the meetings have favored European times. :)00:18
bergieyou call 10pm favoring?00:19
GeneralAntillesOne meeting that favors US residents wont kill anybody. :)00:19
bergieas far as I remember, all meetings have been at 10pm since they were moved from Nokia Research Center to IRC00:19
GeneralAntillesBug Quim about the sprint scheduling.00:19
Jaffa2bergie: 10pm *Finnish* time. Finnish time != European time. CDT was 9pm, BST was 8pm.00:20
Jaffa2Though you have my sympathies00:20
bergieJaffa2: Finnish and Turkish time, it has bit me in both ;-)00:20
bergieworking in Istanbul I'm reliant on wifi-equipped cafes , and they tend to close at some point00:20
bergienow I'm at least not far from my bed ;-)00:21
sp3000hmm, mountain mirrors sounds interesting00:23
andre___bergie, 1:16 is not late. i normally go clubbing around 2AM :)00:26
bergieandre__: that depends on the culture... most places here close around 2/3am00:27
andre___yeah, was the same in sweden when i was there...00:28
jotthehe many clubs open here at 2/3am :p00:30
bergieyes, Helsinki night life sucks00:31
bergieafter 4am there is only passed out people and fist/knife fights00:31
* Jaffa2 sticks his "imagine your own mockup" mockup oar in on -community. Get in first to shape people's ideas ;-)00:33
bergieok, good night, guys00:39

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