JaffaChair: Jaffa.15:06
JaffaSecretary: dneary.15:06
Jaffa   1. Review of progress over the past year of team (open discussion) 2. Setting priorities for next 3 months for the community - not micro-tasks, but larger goals 3. Allocation of ownership & co-ordination responsibilities within these tasks to members of the team 4. A full & frank discussion of the impact of the MeeGo project on the short-term goals of Maemo15:07
dnearydanielwilms, The goal here is not to focus on tasks (short-term) but to focus on strategy15:07
Jaffa5. AOB.15:07
JaffaAny objections to that agenda? None were registered before the meeting...15:07
lcukreasonable to me15:07
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dnearyJaffa, How about a time limit on the meeting?15:08
dnearyI know Stskeeps has to go in an hour15:08
dnearyHow about 90 mins?15:08
Stskeeps(i personally have to leave in exactly 45 mins but i will try to take a bus so i can participate still)15:09
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Stskeepser, 55 mins)15:09
Jaffadneary: that's what the invite said, so agreed. I can't spend any longer than that.15:09
GAN900Miss anything?15:09
JaffaSo, from the council we seem to have: Jaffa; GAN900; javispedro; Texrat.15:09
GAN900(only sort of here)15:10
JaffaFrom the team (both core and additional), we have: dneary, Stskeeps, X-Fade, andre__, karstenb_, JimiDini, bergie (any others?)15:10
JaffaFrom Nokia's community side, we have: danielwilms (no tekojo?)15:11
lcukyou have representation from the fremantle application framework team too \o15:11
dnearyWho's JimiDini?15:11
TexratJaffa I can only stay 30 min15:11
danielwilmsunfortunately tekojo couldn't join15:12
bergiedneary: JimiDini is Alexey from our Midgard team15:12
dnearyAnd a substantial number of Maemo community members15:12
dnearyAh. Alexey15:12
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Jaffadanielwilms: Ah. That's a shame, as his participation was one of the reasons I chose this time. Oh well, can't be helped now.15:12
Jaffa1) REVIEW OF PROGRESS OVER THE PAST YEAR OF MAEMO.ORG TEAM15:13 team - how do you feel it's gone?15:13
ZogGJaffa, my client is writting log, as i dont get timeouts i'll have log anyway15:13
dnearyJaffa, I really wanted to hear back from community15:13
JaffaAh, I missed ferenc off the list of contributors.15:14
bergieover the year we did the server upgrades, have been syncing with Midgard LTS releases and rolled out the packages system15:14
ferencJaffa: no worries15:14
Jaffadneary: And you will, but I wanted to hear what you thought first ;-)15:14
bergiebut I'm disappointed we don't have SSO yet15:14
JaffaThat'd seem to be an overarching trend of the past 12 months: lots of stuff drags on, with no ongoing big communication (e.g. blog posts) with no real conclusion or ownership.15:15
Stskeepsi've only been associated with as such for what, 6 months now and i had the impression had gone into a bit of a slump, kinda like paralysis with all the newcomers.. not always helped with a rather inactive council back then (this is better now!)15:15
JaffaHowever, there have been some big public wins, like the packages interface; docs work; and QA stuff. But many tasks seem to be (ma)lingering.15:15
danielwilmsSSO delay was partly my fault...a lot of parallel stuff, meego and the the fact that it didn't get ready for the move didn't make it easier15:15
bergieas paid contributors we obviously wait for prioritization from the Council :-)15:16
Jaffabergie: That sounds like a cop-out, to be frank.15:16
dnearyWe gained some momentum for community documentation last summer (around the proof-reading of the UX guidelines), maintained it through the Summit last October, and I've felt that it mostly dropped off after that.15:16
TexratI can make no excuses for prior council silence :(15:16
dnearyThe Barcelona meeting gave us a shot in the arm, and I'm going to relaunch the wiki gardeners now15:17
bergiealso, during last year there was the new karma system15:17
bergieand brainstorm15:17
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lcukdneary +1 BCN got everyone facing the right direction about many things15:17
JaffaPrioritisation, fine. But I've never seen any requests for prioritisation. There've been some requests for work (recently dneary springs to mind); but requests for prioritisation would be: "we want to do X, Y and Z. We think they'd all be good."15:17
lcukit focused a lot of thing15:17
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dnearyI've identified the main flaw with the MAG as the lack of a TODO list that people could easily reference, add to, and do stuff from, and a lack of transparency about who to go to to get definitive answers for certain types of questions15:17
TexratI still think Stskeeps' suggestion for project management has MUCH merit15:18
dnearyMaemowiki Action Group (rechristened Wiki gardeners as of this week)15:18
bergieJaffa: we used to get most of priorities from big N, but now that much of that focus is on all things MeeGo...15:18
lcukwell its time to start making those priorities ourselves15:19
dnearyJaffa, One of the things (as I've mentioned to you) is that our monthly opportunity for dialogue with the community (the sprint meetings) became checklist meetings15:19
bergieagreed, dneary15:19
* Jaffa 's biggest frustration has been the lack of pro-active engagement (i.e. "we could do this"). You guys are paid to be deeply embedded in - and that's fantastic. But you can't expect all the work to be generated from 5 volunteers.15:19
dnearyJaffa: And in fact, any attempt to get broader feedback was dismissed on several occasions as off-topic15:19
dneary(in the sprint meetings, I mean)15:20
bergieJaffa: there is a list out there...
X-FadeJaffa: To be fair, there haven't been a lot of requests for new things either.15:20
dnearybergie, Which is perceived as property of staff & Nokia15:20
Jaffadneary: Agreed. And the checklists were incomplete, vague and "oh yes, it's on-track" or "no, I'll carry it over" with no fallout from not completing things.15:20
bergiethough again, much of the sprint procedure including keeping backlog maintained has been "decaying" over last year15:20
TexratAgree with dneary... checklisting can be done offline-- reserve meetings for strategy and rehash15:20
Stskeepsi kinda liked the idea of the 100 days - or the visions of what should become and how things should look in 3,6,9 months or whatever..15:21
Stskeepsmade it possible to plan sprint items from there15:21
dneary6 months is a nice time-range, and could sync nicely with council elections15:21
dnearySo - that's how I've perceived things, now how about you guys?15:21
bergiedneary: yes, the split of power/responsibility in priorities between Nokia and Council isn't exactly clear to me at least15:22
X-FadeIn 6 months our space should be radically different, so yes 6 months seems like a good goal.15:22
sx0nKanban could be one process method for todo list/task management.15:22
GAN900Stskeeps, indeed, and activity was really high and effective during the last 100 days.15:22
bergie6 months is enough for undertaking big goals too15:22
* Jaffa 's "plan" (or "manifesto", if you prefer) is that the team is a self-contained provider of services. And has two equally sized customer: the community (via the Council) and Nokia. Requirements can also be generated internally.15:23
Texratwith perhaps a midpoint review?15:23
Jaffa^^^ bergie15:23
bergieJaffa: that sounds feasible, though obviously it has to be matched with budgetary constraints set by Nokia + volunteer efforts15:23
Jaffabergie: indeed.15:23
lcukbergie, X-Fade, danielwilms & co - ive got an idea for something nice and hopefully realistic for summer15:24
X-FadeWhat we will see is that itself will go more and more into maintenance mode.15:24
Jaffabergie: and it's not just a blackhole - stuff gets pushed back if it's infeasible ("the team should port Maemo to the iPhone" ;-))15:24
StskeepsJaffa: are we speaking infrastructure services or what kind of services?15:24
X-FadeA transitioning place, but not really a lot of new features.15:24
bergieX-Fade: I suppose that depends a bit on what the maemo community wants, too. Maemo could serve both Maemo and MeeGo developers for instance if we want to make it so15:25
JaffaStskeeps: Ooh, interesting question. Stuff like debmaster, bugmaster and (to a lesser degree) docmaster - all providing non-infrastructural support services.15:25
X-FadeWe need to determine where we want to have in 6 months and the longer term.15:25
JaffaX-Fade: I don't think we can say that until we know what MeeGo will bring, and having a vision for with exciting new features will increase the probability of things like Midgard being used more on
TexratWouldn't support of Diablo SSU be a big part of future focus?  Maybe biggest?15:26
JaffaX-Fade: I'd also say it's impossible to say that can go into a maintenance mode when there are still many outstanding tasks (SSO, for example); and streamlining Extras process15:26
X-FadeJaffa: Yes, it is hard to determine where MeeGo will be in 6 months, but one devices get released, people tend to switch fast.15:26
StskeepsTexrat: we don't know what happens with Fremantle either.15:26
TexratStskeeps true15:27
X-FadeJaffa: Sure, but it will also mean that our budget for will get lower.15:27
bergieX-Fade: but on the other hand there may be a long tail of people with Maemo devices15:27
JaffaTexrat: And what support's needed there? Repo already present, people have ability to push to it, Bugzilla is set up.15:27
dnearyTime is getting on. X-Fade brings up an interesting point15:27
X-FadeAnd some of use will switch (partly) to MeeGo.15:27
bergieprobably it would make sense to get the big "housecleaning" tasks out of the way while we still have budgets15:27
TexratBut still, community OS in general I would think would be future reason for existence15:27
dnearyThe budget will be getting smaller, and MeeGo budget will grow (I guess)15:27
Jaffadneary: Indeed.15:27
lcukmy idea should be implementable for meego too15:27
bergieSSO, transitioning Downloads to come from Packages etc15:27
dnearySo how does/should MeeGo affect the agenda?15:28
Jaffabergie: I'd still throw in a donation framework (like Mozilla Add-ons)15:28
TexratJaffa obviously support would be infrastructure, little or nothing more15:28
GAN900dneary, I don't think that can be answered with any certainty yet.15:28
X-FadePersonally: I want to see in a stable state in 6 months. Stable enough to support all current users for time to come.15:28
GAN900Though I'd love to hear some hypotheticals.15:28
Jaffadneary: Things done for should be of long-term benefit to (whatever happens) or tranferrable to websites.15:28
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dnearyX-Fade, How do you define when you say that?15:29
bergieJaffa: fully agreed15:29
dnearyThe website + wiki + bugzilla?15:29
Jaffadneary: e.g. investing in another CSS change wouldn't fit either; but SSO would (the former)15:29
Stskeepsit's also about how we see meego. I like jaffa's view that it's the child of maemo and moblin. and to some extent, too.15:29
X-Fadedneary: Services, people, support.15:29
Stskeepsie, 'how do we deal with this as parents..'15:29
ptldying parents15:30
ptldesperate to make their child replace them15:30
X-Fadedneary: In 6 months time we should have everything in a state where we can say that we can life with that. And continue to keep it running when needed.15:30
JaffaCarrying on Stskeeps' train of thought - we should be preparing our inheritance, but also setting up a pension in case we don't get knocked over by a bus15:30
Texratptl please no editorializing15:30
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ptlok, sorry.15:31
dnearyX-Fade, Anything that's not read-only will degrade - packages, wiki, bugzilla... weeds will grow15:31
lcukwe should also be thinking outside the box and giving new ways of using the site to get both page views AND work done by the community15:31
dnearyGoing beyond the philosophjy for a second...15:31
Jaffalcuk: that sounds like a big investment in something new (like Brainstorm)15:31
bergielcuk: anyway practically everything in the site is developed as an open source project15:31
dnearyJaffa: Do you want to give feedback on a general/individual level to the staff?15:31
X-Fadedneary: Everything should still be in use by then.15:32
lcukbergie, of course, but you are the brains behind the CM and can tell us whether its feasible15:32
lcukand X-Fade knows the rest15:32
lcukand danielwilms has started his app downloader so knows a bit of that side15:32
Jaffadneary: It's an interesting idea; but not now. ACTION: Council to provide constructive feedback to the staffers15:32
TexratJaffa one think I believe would help with makign things happen is for council members to be specific champions of activity15:32
lcuksomething i have always wondered - why doesnt have a shopping basket15:32
bergielcuk: X-Fade for example became a staff member by first just starting to submit patches to the project15:32
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lcukso i can select 20 apps15:32
lcukand have them synced to device15:33
lcukmove the experience of selecting apps and slowness we have to the big pcs15:33
X-Fadelcuk: Things like that need device support.15:33
Jaffalcuk: well, assuming the .install format can handle it - sure. Raise an enhancement. Let's not get into technical ideas now15:33
lcukof course X-Fade danielwilms has done a qt based app manager15:33
lcukthat could talk with maemo.org15:34
JaffaShall we move on then to setting up some big concepts for the next 6 months (as item 2)15:34
zaheermthat arguably should be done on the device, select 20 apps and have them install in the background15:34
Texratyes Jaffa15:34
bergieJaffa: sounds good15:34
lcukjaffa - we are considering the future, im trying to come up with a future thats better15:34
bergieso, SSO: go or no go?15:34
JaffaSSO, obvious one. Priority #1, probably15:34
javispedrowhat's missing? where can we get a proper outlook an what's the state of sso, what's not working, what needs to be done?15:34
Jaffa...on maemo-community15:35
danielwilmsjavispedro I can write a summary about that on the list15:35
mikki-kunmay i ask what sso is?15:35
danielwilmsSingle Sign-On15:35
javispedrodanielwilms: not list -- wiki.15:35
JaffaACTION: danielwilms to update maemo-community with pointer to up-to-date wiki page on SSO status15:35
javispedroand not necessarily by you alone :)15:35
danielwilmsjavispedro ok...will update the page15:35
Jaffadanielwilms: ...and send a link when done. Monitoring lots of wiki pages is tedious ;-)15:36
mikki-kunhm, what does SSO actually do? provide for the whole maemo-site a single login?15:36
JaffaI've got one low-level mundane one, and one high level one15:36
danielwilmsJaffa will do15:36
Jaffamikki-kun: Yes15:36
Jaffadanielwilms: Thanks. Including how we could do account merging/SSO with tmo as well, please.15:36
javispedrobasically, where would someone need to start working on if you all were to be roller over by a bus tomorrow.15:37
JaffaLOW-LEVEL: Develop a plan for if/when Nokia pay the hosting bills, but perhaps not for staff. How do we manage the servers?15:37
dnearyJaffa: For setting the priorities, I'd like to make a proposal15:37
dnearyOutside of a certain number which we can decide now...15:37
JaffaHIGH-LEVEL: Can we re-enact the first 100 days? Is there enough motivation in the community?15:37
X-FadeJaffa: Nokia will fund servers and maintenance for the lifetime.15:37
dneary... we should run a short (say: 1 week) brainstorming session, like we did for 100Days15:38
dnearyThere are a lot of people who aren't here15:38
Jaffadneary: Exactly.15:38
dnearyJaffa, I would volunteer to run that.15:38
dnearyI'll be offline from next Monday evening for a couple of days at least, though15:38
Jaffadneary: Ditto.15:39
Stskeepsmy suggestion of my priorities over the next six months for my own work: primary: meego/n900 work, meego/n8x0 (move 'maemo' crowd to meego). provide support what community SSU needs and the usual AOB stuff with licensing and helping where i can.15:39
dnearyJaffa, I suggest that it is the Community Council's responsibility to be proactive with Tero to find out how the budget will evolve in June, and again in December15:39
dnearyHe may not know, but you should ask15:39
JaffaAnyone have any objections to a 7-day brainstorm? Probably consist of some high-level topic threads on tmo and wiki pages being updated pulling things out15:39 shopping/device app sync.  multiselect everything wanted like candy and install/remove apps as required on target device.   it also should allow testing of apps without worrrying about repositories or messing and gain feedback because it knows which apps you add/remove and can ask "you deselected/uninstalled 4 apps, why?"   and carry this through to the meego instance if/when.  the client app written in qt should be future por15:39
lcuktable and still work in similar manner.15:39
javispedrosounds doable, lcuk. do we have a public api for 3rd party apps?15:40
bergielcuk: we're porting Maemo Downloads to use Packages DB directly, so such changes will be easier to handle in the new codebase15:40
X-Fadelcuk: That is what appdownloader can do.15:40
dnearyAlso, wrt SSO - if we do it for Maemo, with Midgard, and MeeGo can't reuse any of the work, that will be wasted effort15:40
bergiejavispedro: yes, we use OCS (
lcukyes X-Fade but i want it on my big pc15:40
javispedrobergie: ta15:40
lcukthats where the testing squad work from15:40
X-Fadelcuk: qt app works there too ;)15:40
lcukthats where we can get overall feedback15:41
bergiedneary: SSO uses CAS, so it isn't Midgard-specific15:41
lcukyes 15:41
lcukthats why im talking about it15:41
dnearybergie, Cool15:41
danielwilmsjavispedro lcuk could be done on top of the appdownloader15:41
JaffaOK, so let's move on from that. It's a feature request for (to provide the basket) to be developed with appdwownloader (to get access to the basket) or HAM (with a multiple-package .install file)15:41
javispedrodneary: is already on their own form of partial SSO -- and sadly it at least seems to work better than what we have now.15:41
bergiedneary: and for MeeGo SSO there are no decisions yet (and CAS is one of the alternatives we proposed)15:41
dnearybergie, You're just writing a Midgard plug-in for CAS, then?15:41
lcukyes danielwilms i thought that when i first saw your work :)15:41
GAN900dneary, clearly, should move to Midgard, then. *eg*15:41
bergiedneary: that is already done (by JimiDini)15:41
dnearyjavispedro, They have the same issue with wiki log-ins & links to Special:Login as we do15:41
javispedrowell I don't know the specifics, but I never encountered that15:42
javispedrois it really necessary to get 100% integration?15:42
lcukjaffa yes - its an idea that gets all the pieces "finished" downloads is great but lacks the tie in with the device itself15:42
JaffaWORKING ON TASKS: a 7-day brainstorm will produce a lot of stuff. Just backlog it and people work on it?15:42
JaffaHow do the staffers want to be managed? Obviously the sprint meeting checklists weren't working.15:42
dnearyOK - ACTION: Re-run a 7 day brainstorm on talk + lists + wiki for the next 6 months.15:43
bergieJaffa: personally I'd like to hear bigger goals/priorities from the council15:43
dnearyJaffa, Prioritize15:43
X-FadeJaffa: Problem is that a lot of the work staffers do, is not bound by public tasks or is just BAU.15:43
dnearyJaffa, We'll need community, council, Nokia & staff input there15:43
Jaffadneary: Priortise what? Just the brainstorm, every four weeks?15:43
JaffaX-Fade: Yes, but it's ridiculous that a) I still don't know everyone who's paid to work on and b) what they're doing on at any particular point.15:44
Jaffa(a) could be addressed by going to tekojo, but it seems there's a large pool of people behind corporate doors where we only get glints. That's fine; but it's not clear (IMHO)15:45
X-FadeJaffa: Well, a you won't ever ;)15:45
X-FadeBecause that always changes ;)15:45
bergieJaffa: I guess part of the reason for that is that we (Nemein) have some budget that is shared by bunch of people including Reggie, Niels, debmaster, our Midgard team15:45
JaffaX-Fade: Indeed. And so it was particularly frustrating when a new face (to me) turned up in a sprint meeting I was chairing and said "I'm doing X"15:45
X-FadeJaffa: But that was for a task the community came up with.15:46
X-FadeSo not all is bad.15:46
* Stskeeps has three contractual obligations: internal task work (currently meego arm/n900), meego on n810 and distmaster tasks, 120h/month15:46
dnearyJaffa, Prioritise the Big Hairy Goals at the end of the brainstorm, based on input & a meeting15:46
Jaffabergie: Indeed; so where the contract is corporate (e.g. Nemein) rather than personal (X-Fade) there should be a clear point of contact perhaps, rather than individual reporting.15:46
bergieJaffa: that'd be me then15:46
Jaffadneary: I'll like "BHG" :)15:46
Jaffabergie: Indeed.15:46
JaffaX-Fade: Really, I didn't define "X"; you're getting psychic ;-)15:47
bergieI'm anyway meeting with tekojo to discuss their priorities every now and then. It helps when the offices are only few hundred meters apart...15:47
Jaffabergie: Well, not really - it's not exactly open ;-)15:47
X-FadeJaffa: Just saying that if one of bergie's people worked on it, it was a task already set.15:47
dnearyJaffa: It's actually "Big Hairy Audacious Goals" (BHAG)15:47
bergieJaffa: some of the process is open, and some of it is not, obviously ;-) But we try to keep more open than not15:48
* javispedro ponders for a moment what kind of work can't be open15:48
X-FadeBut how about do a 7 day brainstorm. Have a priority settting meeting after that and assign work to people?15:49
bergiejavispedro: if I tell you I have to kill you ;-)15:49
dnearyjavispedro, Root passwords on servers15:49
bergie(no, we're not party to any big secrets)15:49
javispedrook dneary :)15:49
Stskeepsjavispedro: one example could be me working to clean up code to get it out into the open15:49
X-Fadejavispedro: there are no big secrets other than releases being prepared etc.15:49
dnearyX-Fade, I noted that as an ACTION, for me, for the week already15:49
dnearyJaffa: Re. your question "How do the staffers want to be managed?" - I want people to be demanding15:51
JaffaOK, once tasks are assigned; after the brainstorm should we say: 1) Monthly blog posts (syndicated to planet) or emails (which can be consolidated by the council into one blog post) for each task; and a biweekly (i.e. every 2 weeks) catch-up meeting15:52
dnearyJaffa, I want people to be complaining about things not being done on mailing lists, asking me to do stuff I hadn't thought of, I can handle 100 demanding people, I can't handle none.15:52
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Jaffadneary: understood.15:53
Jaffadneary: I also want ideas the community hasn't thought of to be suggested by you - you're the domain experts, after all.15:53
X-FadeIt is hard for some of us to see how many hours a week they will be working on maemo and meego though.15:53
JaffaWe're just amateur gadget enthusiasts. No professional experience here that could be drawn on, nosiree ;-)15:53
javispedroalso, cleanup the backlog wiki page.15:54
JaffaX-Fade: And that's why it's hard for the community to suggest tasks when we don't even know if you'll be working 1 hour or 300 hours this week.15:54
javispedroand the dropped items page, etc.15:54
X-FadeJaffa: Yes, goes both ways.15:54
javispedroa question also: is the current backlog system ok? should we prioritize bmo for listing todo items, is wiki page enough?15:54
dnearyjavispedro, Clean up the dropped items page? Isn't that a bit like tidying the town dump?15:55
dnearyjavispedro, The current backlog/task system suffers from boredom15:55
Jaffajavispedro: Hopefully after the brainstorm, someone should suggest items off the backlog if they think they're useful; and it should all go into the prirotisation15:55
dnearyAll the interesting tasks have been addressed, and what's left are ideas from years ago that are bad ideas, difficult, or boring15:56
javispedrodneary: yes, I can see the boredom, thus the reason it might need moving into a "More active place", like bmo (but this is mostly a placebo...)15:56
dnearyWe need to renew things & get a clear idea of what the community wants for maemo.org15:56
X-FadeAs concrete as possible.15:57
javispedroexactly dneary 15:57
Jaffadneary: That's pretty indicting for people who are paid to work on stuff which is necessary, rather than interesting.15:57
Jaffa(in general, rather than specifics15:57
dnearyJaffa: Can you identify anything on the backlog page which is necessary?15:57
Jaffadneary: The examples of SSO, and Packages/Bugzilla usability improvements are tasks which have been hanging around because they're hard/uninteresting.15:59
dnearyJaffa, SSO is interesting I think15:59
bergieSSO has been hanging because of server availability and later because danielwilms has been busy, not because of boredom15:59
X-FadeJaffa: It is also hanging because there are other pressing issues coming up all the time.16:00
JaffaFor example, Reggie's not bad with usability & CSS, perhaps he could help with the Packages UI. There's been no general call for "this is what it has to do, this is how it now does it; can anyone suggest improved UI"16:00
Jaffadneary: Interesting but hard ;-)16:00
dnearyPlus, sometimes the tasks are (as X-Fade says) not very well defined, quite wishy-washy16:00
JaffaSo we have resourcing issues.16:00
X-FadeJaffa: Sometimes the BAU and issues are more work than can be done in a month, let alone create something new.16:00
dnearyJaffa, I agree that communication & requesting help has not been the forte for a number of tasks16:01
Stskeepsadditional help for webmaster tasks seems very needed, isn't it?16:01
JaffaX-Fade: True. Maybe this is where the monthly written reports would be more useful; not particularly detailed just a "I'm working on this, this and this. This happened which broke X, Y and Z"16:01
bergieJaffa: we just had a two-day hacking session with X-Fade about the Packages tool, so things *do* move forward16:01
danielwilmsJaffa and then we could make it in a meeting and write down what we want to do next month and... 16:02
Jaffabergie: But how can you then complain about community input when such things happen in the background? Or complain about prioritisation when you've not told anyone in the community that you're doing this?16:02
dnearyJaffa, I don't think monthly reports cut it, actually16:02
bergieJaffa: true, we could've explained more what was happening, but anyway it is on
danielwilmsthen we are in the situation as before...16:02
Jaffadanielwilms: No, doing it online wastes time. Someone should be able to write 4 paragraphs a month. If they can't, that can be pointed to and I don't support paying them to work on maemo.org16:02
dnearyJaffa, You bundle things up, and you get the kind of reports you criticised earlier - "Progress is slow, but things are moving, working on packages interface"16:02
Jaffadneary: What would?16:03
X-FadeAlso one issue I have is that I spend 2 hours a day reading lists, forums, tweets, irc and not actually doing anything in that time.16:03
dnearyJaffa, Regular questions on mailing lists (really)16:03
javispedrobergie: those reports are perfect, but sometimes, from an external PoV, I don't even know what task that work is for.16:03
X-FadeKeeping up with all the information just cuts into actual work being done.16:03
JaffaI'm not signing up to a 7-day brainstorm, a task allocation and then watching your contracts get moved over to (or whatever) and everyone have been silent16:03
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dnearyLike "Niels, any progress on the Packages interface? Is there anything that you can delegate?" or whatever16:03
Jaffadneary: Except requests for information often go unanswered.16:04
X-FadeI report all the work I do on Packages on Qaiku.16:04
dnearyJaffa, Indeed16:04
Jaffadneary: I'll set up a four weekly cronjob to say: "How's it going? What've you been working on? What's been blocking it?" if you want, but I'll expect answers.16:04
X-FadeBut maybe we need a community liason to inform the community about work being done?16:04
TermanaIsn't the the point of the council? To be a community liason?16:05
X-FadeSomeone who is in direct contact and can ask questions. And then can relay this?16:05
JaffaIf we assume that the brainstorm is going to deliver some BHAGs, we'll have one or two people allocated to owning them (if not doing them).16:05
dnearyX-Fade, I think that people who are asked questions on the mailing lists need to answer16:05
JaffaWhy is it unreasonable to ask that they write 4 paragraphs every 4 weeks (between them) which can be a starting point for the questions dneary suggests?16:06
dnearyI don't know how transparent & followed qaiku is16:06
JimiDinicoould it be some blog hosted at
JimiDiniwith summary16:06
* javispedro thinks of the wiki's task page (again ;) )16:06
X-Fadedneary: It is in the wiki in the sprint page too.16:06
JaffaJimiDini: Could be your own blog (syndicated), could be mailing list, could be a blog (I don't care)16:06
JaffaWe expect GSoC students to report, and they're not paid consultant/contractor rates ;-)16:07
Jaffajavispedro: It's pull. It's not push.16:07
JimiDiniJaffa: I thought about summary-entries. Something like: last week team did A, B and C16:07
Jaffajavispedro: Openness means not burying status reports in the cellar, in a locked cupboard, with the stairs missing and a sign on the door saying "Beware of the leopard".16:07
JimiDininot personal16:07
JaffaJimiDini: Ah, I see - as part of X-Fade's community liaison stuff16:07
dnearyX-Fade, Again, I don't know if there's anyone going to the wiki sprint page every day16:08
Jaffajavispedro: It's also easy to see if individuals aren't reporting - and if we agree people should be, that gives a clear indication that can be used at contract negotiation time.16:08
dnearyJaffa, Are you sure it's so easy?16:08
X-Fadedneary: Well, you can't put it on the front page either.16:08
X-FadeThe point is that the info is somewhere.16:08
JaffaHonestly, truly, if one of my developers said to me "I can't keep you updated because it takes too much time", they'd be getting a severe slapping at their evaluation.16:08
JaffaAnd, indeed, they do.16:08
dnearyIf you have 4 different places where you can report, there's a decent change that you might miss it if you're looking in the wrong place16:09
X-FadeAnd you can link to it from where you think it is needed.16:09
javispedroJaffa: as it is now, not much has been pulled lately. i'm not advocating for anybody to have to push minutes, but maybe consider "pulling status" as a task for a task's stakeholder if we ever get back to having stakeholders again :)16:09
bergieso maybe staff could report day-by-day on Qaiku, and then X-Fade (or somebody else) could compile a weekly summary16:09
JaffaTask reporting is a basic skill of someone on a long-term project; especially if working geographically dispersed.16:09
dnearyOK - let me ask a provocative question16:10
Jaffajavispedro: Indeed, I like the idea (espoused in the agenda) that the brainstorm (as we now call it) would have a person (with possible deputy) responsible for it; who was contracted to work on
dnearyI have not been the best about using Qaiku - it's not a tool I'm used to, so I have to consciously think about going there to set status, etc.16:10
Jaffabergie: would help, I guess.16:10
dnearyHave people had trouble following what I've been working on because of that?16:10
dnearyAnd X-Fade's been using Qaiku - do people feel that he's been good about reporting recently?16:11
* Jaffa doesn't look at Qaiku regularly. That's the advantage of a single page - when you want a snapshot you (should) be able to see at a glance.16:11
* andre__ is also interested if his qaiku reports are somehow helpful16:11
dnearyIt just seems to me that when people are active on mailing lists & forums, that is visible, it's also interactive16:11
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lcuklol jaffa doesnt that just make your work harder?  im used to people getting on with stuff unless they have a problem, they learn the deadline at the start and i dont expect updates till they are there ;)  saves work for everyone, but thats not to say i dont know whats going on.  communication occurs16:11
javispedrowell, I am completely biased because I understand X-Fade's work better than yours, but yes, I am more informed in what X-Fade is doing than what dneary is doing :)16:12
JaffaHowever, a single page hasn't been working.16:12
lcukdneary, very true16:12
Jaffalcuk: And when I'm travelling, and can't ask them a question because of TZs, I expect the JIRA issue to  be relatively up-to-date. Bus factor plays a part.16:12
bergieBTW, this tool will enable actually doing "completion percentages" etc with Qaiku:
X-FadeOk, so part of the 7 day brainstorm should be how you want to have your reports and with what detail.16:14
dnearyI would much prefer using Bugzilla to track TODOs and use mailing lists to brainstorm & get feedback & update proposals16:14
Jaffalcuk: anyway, as has been demonstrated by the continual "nope, not finished" during the sprints I *don't* trust that tasks will be finished when they were supposed to be; because of the BAU and resource issues X-Fade earlier referred to.16:14
lcukthats a communication problem prior then and a different issue16:15
JaffaHowever, I'm not aware of the council having received an email saying "guys, I'd love to do more work; but can you help me ask tekojo for more time?"16:15
dnearyOK - I'm going to summarise the last 15 minutes under a new agenda item: " team workflow"16:15
Jaffalcuk: Didn't I say it was a communication issue?16:15
X-FadeIf community feels that there needs to be more reporting, then we should have more reporting.16:15
Stskeepsgtg - metro coming16:15
JaffaStskeeps: thanks16:15
lcukyup jaffa16:15
dnearyStskeeps, Bye16:15
javispedroit's not about MORE reporting per se -- haiku is already quite a detailed reporting.16:15
Jaffadneary: I think, in all honesty, despite pain and suffering caused, tmo will be a more acceptable place for the brainstorming.16:16
javispedroit's about more efficient/targeted reporting, possibly not by the task doers themselves.16:16
JaffaOr at least not as a commit-log type thing, but a more accessible level.16:16
X-FadeI feel that a task should be supervised by someone else then the one working on it.16:16
Jaffadneary: I'd suggest having something like one thread per area of, and then a general one for "Community Working". Each thread can have some ideas posted and discussed, with new threads if it's particularly involved. If we rope in the Community sub-forum moderators, it should work quite well.16:17
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bergieJaffa: I'm not particularly eager to lose our work reporting and tasks in the TMO noise16:18
bergiethough, if the particular forum is well-moderated then maybe16:18
Jaffabergie: I'm talking about the brainstorm.16:18
javispedrobrainstorm style 16:18
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Jaffabergie: I'm not talking about reporting. I think it's either one mail per task per person to maemo-community (or maemo-developers if more appropriate) or one whole blog post which is syndicated to planet (and I don't care where that blog is).16:19
bergieJaffa: ok, so this stuff would be handled as part of Brainstorms16:20
Jaffabergie: Sorry, which "stuff"16:21
JaffaI'm also *not* advocating the user of the Brainstorm tool for this strategy brainstorm.16:21
bergiestuff as in task planning, prioritization. Stuff.16:21
JaffaSince the voting aspects aren't important, and the discussion aspects are. Some overall brainstorm moderator (e.g. dneary) would be pulling concrete conclusions and suggestions out into a single wiki page16:22
Jaffabergie: Yeah, could be - as part of the "Community Working" one16:22
bergiecould work, sure... whatever we choose (mailing list, Qaiku, Brainstorm, TMO, ...), there should be one way to handle it, not different optional ones16:23
JaffaOK, seems like we're approaching a natural end point.16:23
JaffaThe 7-day brainstorm to determine more stuff, and how it's reported, is the biggest task (SSO and ensure continuity of service (i.e. what happens if Nokia change their mind plans) should be considered there).16:25
dnearyJaffa, re. "I'd suggest having something like..."16:25
dnearyJaffa, I honestly think we need to use the right tool for the right job16:25
JaffaThis focused brainstorm on the different areas of will be open and advertised as widely as possible. It will be collaborative. It will be being summarised on a wiki page (or pages) as it goes and the outcome of it will be a prioritisation meeting involving the staffers, the Community Council and Nokia.16:26
JaffaPossibly even a phone meeting to discuss the items.16:26
Jaffadneary: What's the right tool? Effective long term brainstorms I've seen have been along these lines (fora with specific areas/questions to focus the discussion). IBM held one every year (might still do).16:27
dnearyJaffa, So if you're fixing bugs, then a bug tracker is the ideal place to track activity. If you're co-ordinating community effort, a mailing list/forum thread/wiki page is best, and so on16:27
dnearyJaffa, For this brainstorm, mailing list + Talk thread + wiki page(s)16:27
Jaffadneary: What are you talking about now? Reporting of the tasks post brainstorm?16:27
dnearyJaffa, Reporting on tasks (you said: "dneary: I'd suggest having something like one thread per area of, and then a general one for "Community Working". Each thread can have some ideas posted and discussed, with new threads if it's particularly involved. If we rope in the Community sub-forum moderators, it should work quite well.")16:28
Jaffadneary: For the brainstorm, I've already outlined that I think it'll have to be tmo (with pointers there from the mailing lists) with wiki page(s) actively summarising the ideas.16:28
Jaffadneary: No, that's my suggestion for how to run the brainstorm.16:28
dnearyJaffa, What do you mean by "area of"?16:28
Jaffadneary: Wiki, Downloads, News, Bugzilla, Talk, Packages, ...16:29
dnearyIt seems like we have concurred with GAN900 that we can't really talk about the relationship between Maemo & MeeGo, and how the latter affects our agenda?16:29
dnearyJaffa, That seems like a lot of threads from the get-go16:29
Jaffadneary: It seems like 7 (including "Community Working")16:30
Jaffadneary: That's better than one thread per great idea someone has.16:30
Jaffadneary: Which won't be focussed on something which might be achievable16:30
dnearyAnd what does the ellipsis stand for? :)16:30
ferencJaffa: you forgot to mention: garage and the related services and servers (vcs.m.o, git.m.o)16:31
Jaffaferenc: All of that under Garage (since they're only available to Garage projects)16:32
ferencJaffa: ok16:32
dnearyJaffa, How about: Wiki, Bugzilla, Downloads & Packages, Garage & developer services16:32
Jaffadneary: OK, alternative? (sorry, missing out pleasantries ;-))16:32
javispedroI just hope any new tmo community thread works better than the "ask the council" one :)16:33
bergiedneary: News/Planet16:33
dnearyAnd a general "Community collaboration" one?16:33
Jaffadneary: Why can't people brainstorm about News? Or Talk? And where's the brainstorm about how we're (you're) going to report tasks going?16:33
JaffaAh, OK.16:33
dnearybergie, <shrug> You think there's a lot of work needed there?16:33
dnearyJaffa, Talk & mailing lists, OK16:33
Jaffadneary: Doesn't hurt to have a thread which is empty. Talk's not exactly short of threads!16:33
Texrathey javispedro, what's wrong with "ask the council"?  :p16:33
Jaffadneary: Aren't you therefore getting back to my list? ;-)16:34
bergiedneary: yeah, we're working on some minor features (as well as preparing it to run Planet MeeGo)16:34
dnearyJaffa, I was just wondering what the ellipsis meant16:34
Jaffadneary: I think Downloads is separate to Packages - one is end-user facing, the other is developer facing on the same DB16:34
dnearyAnd I fear we will miss mailing list ideas16:34
javispedroTexrat: well, for a time we'd get either tech support questions or inflammatory ones :) 16:34
Jaffadneary: As ferenc pointed out, Garage16:34
dnearyI would like us to use the forums and the lists as inspiration for wiki pages16:35
Jaffadneary: There's noone participating on the mailing list who isn't here in this meeting, or on talk.maemo.org16:35
dnearyNot true16:35
dnearyAt least16:35
dnearyThere are others16:35
Jaffadneary: If we make it clear how to follow those few threads - and advertise them - then that'll have to do16:35
JaffaAnd there are more the other way.16:35
JaffaWe can't have two brainstorms running concurrently.16:35
dnearyAnd I think there are fewer & fewer active guys reading the forum every day16:36
KhertanJaffa: many didn't read t.m.o anymore16:36
JaffaIf, for no other reason, whoever's responsible for pulling stuff out16:36
dnearyJaffa, There would be only one - the wiki pages16:36
Jaffadneary: you can't have sensible discussions on Talk: pages.16:36
dnearyJaffa, That's not my proposal16:36
dnearyGenerate ideas in forums & mailing lists, document & evolve them in wiki16:36
Jaffadneary: My point was that the person pulling stuff into the wikis would have to monitor two routes.16:37
dnearyThe wiki becomes the basis for the deliverable at the end of the brainstorm16:37
Jaffadneary: I really don't think it'll work. It's not the initial idea, it's where it gets to after being discussed between a couple of people.16:37
dnearyJaffa, Yeah, I got that :)16:37
javispedrowell, can't be worse than the current situation16:37
Jaffajavispedro: What, of no strategy? Isn't this supposed to be a way of a) reinvigorating the community; b) getting lots of good ideas16:37
dnearyforum vs mailing list is my biggest regret in Maemo16:37
dneary& we're repeating the error in meego16:38
dnearyWhat a waste16:38
* Jaffa loves mailing lists; however I think the forum is better for this. The threads can be stickied, they have more visibility and we can try and make them as visible as possible to the mailing lists.16:38
javispedroJaffa: I mean that you have to search for information on _every channel_ right now16:38
dnearyForcing people to use a tool they like at the risk of missing important discussions they're interested in is a recipe for communiticide16:38
Texratdneary, specifically what is that regret?16:38
Jaffadneary: Or maybe you could follow up with lbt & Reggie on making these threads available via the mailing list interface that's available.16:38
Texratnevermind, got it16:39
Jaffadneary: It's not suitable for a general mailing list (AIUI), but could provide a good email interface to the threads for those who want it.16:39
dneary"to use a tool they don't like..."16:39
Jaffadneary: I'm not *sure* it's production strength - but for 8ish threads for one week, it might be sufficient.16:39
dnearyJaffa, I added myself to the group to test it, but now I only get a daily summary of changed thread16:39
javispedroat this point you have to read tmo, ml lists, irc logs, tweeter, m.o/news, m.o planet, haiku, meego forums, meego mls, and EVEN THEN, sometimes MWKN has some piece of news that I didn't read previously.16:40
dnearyjavispedro, Indeed - I learned of jeremiah leaving through MWKN16:40
bergiejavispedro: valid point, we need to prune the amount of channels we do these discussions on. This is unmanageable16:40
Jaffajavispedro: Glad MWKN adds value even to you. That suggests we're missing other stuff though16:41
dnearybergie, Absolutely. Like X-Fade said, you can easily spend 2 to 3 hours a day, just *reading* all the information in all the different channels16:41
dnearyNever mind replying to email, threads, blogging, ...16:41
bergieof course, the point of Social News was to compile a list of the "important stuff" so you don't need to comb through all the different channels16:41
bergieso maybe an answer would be to aggregate TMO topics etc there too16:42
Jaffabergie: good idea - suggest it in the brainstorm ;-)16:42
TexratJaffa I asked this on tmo but will add here too: it would be nice to add an Editorial section to MWKN16:42
JaffaTexrat: Let's take it offline, I want to wrap this meeting up.16:42
JaffaAOB? Any questions on the actions?16:43
Jaffadneary to produce minutes16:43
JaffaLog to be published too (X-Fade, can you do that?)16:43
X-FadeJaffa: Yes, will do.16:44
JaffaX-Fade: Thanks.16:44
dnearyJaffa, I've ACTIONed you to contact tekojo concerning the budgetary evolution of vs meego too16:45
Jaffadneary: Thanks16:46
JaffaSounds like that's about it. Thanks all. Very helpful.16:46
JaffaThanks to dneary for doing the minutes and setting the ball rolling16:46
javispedroa pity about the meego part  :)16:46
javispedrobut I also agree with GAN there.16:46

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