| X-Fade | Hello everyone. Thank you for coming to this meeting. | 20:59 |
|---|---|---|
| X-Fade | Please try to keep the conversation organized and try not to talk all at once ;) | 20:59 |
| X-Fade | We'll try to run this channel without moderation this time, let's see what happens. | 20:59 |
| Andy80 | _berto_: hi berto :) | 21:00 |
| X-Fade | I'll let Quim(http://flors.wordpress.com/bio/) do a little introduction about the reasoning behind this meeting. | 21:00 |
| * lardman chuckles | 21:00 | |
| qgil | hi there, thanks for... well you know | 21:00 |
| qgil | Basically I'm a regular interface in maemo/maemo.org | 21:00 |
| qgil | working at Nokia since January 2007, spending many more years in community stuff, from politics to web stuff to free software... | 21:01 |
| qgil | and well, having studied journalism | 21:01 |
| qgil | and communications, there is a gold rule that says | 21:02 |
| qgil | if there is a problem in communication, communicate | 21:02 |
| qgil | and here we go | 21:02 |
| qgil | about my role | 21:02 |
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| qgil | (and to help you asking questions I actually know to answer) | 21:02 |
| qgil | I'm working as "marketing manager" | 21:02 |
| qgil | two words that in the free software community (and any developer related context) sound like... | 21:03 |
| qgil | well, you know | 21:03 |
| qgil | marketing manager, open source | 21:03 |
| qgil | I help setting the dialog with the maemo community, the many related upstream projects and also getting a better understanding inside Nokia about all this world | 21:04 |
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| qgil | so: no developer, no real manager, something in between | 21:04 |
| qgil | now your turn | 21:04 |
| hrw|gone | marketing questiom... why no n8x0 in Poland? | 21:04 |
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| hrw|gone | no sell, no service | 21:05 |
| qgil | hrw|gone: ok, so I work in the maemo team, who is in charge of developing the software that goes inside those little devices you have | 21:05 |
| hrw|gone | ok | 21:05 |
| lardman | qgil: Thanks for organising the meeting first of all; you're marketing manager for Maemo or for the NITs, or are both considered the same in Nokia? | 21:05 |
| qgil | hrw|gone: then in a distant place of the company there is the Markets unit that know actually a lot about the people in this world | 21:05 |
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| qgil | hrw|gone: they are the ones deciding where a product is sold when | 21:06 |
| hrw|gone | ok - will ask technical later | 21:06 |
| DevilsReject | he didn't open the floor for questions, he asked us to introduce ourselves. i'm stefan, never owned an internet tablet, always curious, but still doesn't feel right as a product. i'm an editor at intomobile.com and work for nokia as a marketeer for the S60 OS | 21:06 |
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| qgil | "he" just said "your turn" :) | 21:06 |
| dneary | Hi all, I've arrived. Dave Neary here. | 21:07 |
| MoRpHeUz | =) | 21:07 |
| Andy80 | sure he want us to introduce us? quim? :) | 21:07 |
| MoRpHeUz | too many people for that IMHO | 21:07 |
| qgil | well, there is 40 people in the room | 21:07 |
| nomis | I suspect an introduction before the first question would not hurt. | 21:07 |
| qgil | sure | 21:07 |
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| Andy80 | ok | 21:07 |
| qgil | I have bad memory and I don't necessarily connect nicks with email names with interesting stuff I see all around, any help on this is appreciated | 21:08 |
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| lardman | apologies for asking without saying who I am, my name is Simon Pickering, I do some development on the NITs (I have a 770, n800 & n810), mainly DSP stuff | 21:08 |
| Stskeeps | <- carsten, soon phd student, using tablets for healthcare prototypes (pervasive healthcare) and a tablet user myself :) | 21:09 |
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| jsmanrique | hi everyone from Gijon (Spain) | 21:09 |
| lcuk | hi quim.. im coming to linuxtag with you.. i got my 810 because i wanted something powerful enough to allow me to put my ideas in code. i am achieving those things and loving every minute of it :) | 21:09 |
| johnx | I'm John, I've had an N800 for a year now, and I'm working on making a nice Debian release for the tablet and also trying to get Maemo working on the Sharp Zaurus | 21:10 |
| qgil | lardman: did you ask something - in general make sure I'm not missing questions in the conversation | 21:10 |
| qwerty12_N800 | Faheem Pervez. 15. Have n800 with diablo. I'm a tiny hacker on anything i see - I can do quite good stuff as long as it doesn't involve coding. | 21:10 |
| qgil | johnx: that's cool | 21:10 |
| jsmanrique | finally, I won't be able being in LinuxTag due to Madrid's W3C Event | 21:10 |
| Navi | Heh | 21:10 |
| lardman | qgil: I was wondering whether you're the marketing manager of the Maemo platform or the NITs or if both are the same inside Nokia? | 21:10 |
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| qgil | software and hardware are developed by different units (that of course collaborate together) | 21:11 |
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| Andy80 | my name is Andrea Grandi, I'm from Italy and few days ago I kept a talk at PyCon 2 (the Italian Python conference) about "PyMaemo: programming Nokia Internet Tablets with Python", the question, from about 50 people, is often this one "why no PHONE capability inside Nokia Internet Tablets? | 21:11 |
| qgil | but to put you an example, Thoughtfix and Jonathan Greene talk most of the times to the product managers and communication people from the devices side, while I work on the software side | 21:12 |
| lardman | ok, thanks for the clarification | 21:12 |
| hrw|gone | <- Marcin Juszkiewicz, OpenEmbedded and Poky developer from Poland. owner of 770, n810, zaurus c7x0, two neo1973 (openmoko), interested in i18n/l10n in maemo and running non-maemo linux on tablets. http://blog.haerwu.biz/ | 21:12 |
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| qwerty12_N800 | Do nokia have plans for gl to ever be implemented on n8*0? | 21:13 |
| qgil | lardman: also, it is pretty difficult to talk about hardware design and developement in a software development context, leave alone in a open source context | 21:13 |
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| lcuk | qgil, i think you know that we are interested in the powervr 3d hardware and other things inside the ARM chip. could you give us some info on whether any drivers could be forthcoming? we see this device with a great deal of potential but require additional horsepower to achieve it. | 21:13 |
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| andre___ | hi folks, guenther and me have started this month to be the bugmasters of bugs.maemo.org. our task is to prioritize and handle the incoming bug reports from the community. looking forward to working with you! | 21:14 |
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| * guenther nods ;) | 21:14 | |
| DevilsReject | agree, the fact that the hardware is capable of accelerated graphics, yet the CPU is being used to render the screen ... says a lot. | 21:14 |
| lcuk | the other devices in the nokia lineup making use of the same chip have the drivers, surely something could be arranged even if it is closed source binary. | 21:14 |
| lardman | and if not could we know the reasoning please? | 21:14 |
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| dmsuperman | omgz what's in the meeting | 21:14 |
| Navi | ... | 21:14 |
| qgil | gl, vr etc: can't give specific answers right now but we will explain what is the plan during this year - but the trend to have all this in place is clear everywhere | 21:15 |
| qgil | it is "just" a matter of where, when... | 21:15 |
| lardman | clutter? | 21:15 |
| hrw | lardman: if opengl arrive on n8x0 then clutter will be there | 21:15 |
| qgil | lardman: make sure this question is in the top of the list dneary is collecting so we can push a proper answer earlier | 21:16 |
| hrw | lardman: remember then most of OH guys have n8x0 | 21:16 |
| lardman | hrw: exactly why I was wondering | 21:16 |
| lardman | qgil: will do | 21:16 |
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| acydlord | are there going to be any improvements on the gps driver in the official release of diablo? | 21:17 |
| dneary | lardman: what's the question exactly? Is OpenGL coming to n8x0, and if not, why not? | 21:18 |
| qgil | GPS improvements are coming but, to tell you the truth, I personally don't know if in the diablo release or later | 21:18 |
| RST38h | namely, will there be agps support in the official diablo release? | 21:18 |
| DevilsReject | when will the tablets start becoming essentially big remotes for our S60 mobile phones? i'm sure you've seen the latest add on for the nokia pc suite and the mobile web server for S60 that allows you to do basically anything you can do on your phone, but remotley. that needs to be a staple feature. | 21:19 |
| lardman | dneary: I would settle for just a PowerVR driver so that we could write the OpenGL stuff (but if that were done too then less work for us) | 21:19 |
| qgil | someone commented already in maemo-developers that internally there is software to improve the GPS, but I ignore how estable and productized is that now | 21:19 |
| qwerty12_N800 | is the bluez in diablo the indt optimised version or a different version? | 21:20 |
| lcuk | qgil, do you experience the startup issue? | 21:20 |
| dneary | lardman: OK, noted | 21:20 |
| lardman | (There was also some mention of messages related to AGPS in the leaked image) | 21:20 |
| jsmanrique | I would like seeing more sync capabilities with PIM providers like Google Calendar, Remember the milk, etc... using Pimlico as base (perhaps) | 21:20 |
| jsmanrique | and a more multiplatform development evironment (and more user friendly than a VMWare image) | 21:21 |
| lardman | jsmanrique: Is that a job for Nokia or for us the community though? | 21:21 |
| hrw | jsmanrique: pimlico dates needs rewrite to be more up-to-date with openmoko version | 21:21 |
| hiteck | lardman, note that the drivers will likely be for opengl es instead of the full desktop opengl | 21:21 |
| qgil | (note that the more far you go from community, maemo.org, open source... the most difficult is for me to answer - not even because confidentiality but also due to my own knowledge of the status of things) | 21:21 |
| hrw | hiteck: clutter supports opengl es nicely | 21:21 |
| lardman | hiteck: yes | 21:21 |
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| lcuk | hiteck, what matters is that we can throw textures around the screen ;) | 21:21 |
| jsmanrique | is there any plan to support some kind of pymaemo dev platform that doesn't need Scratchbox or something like that?? | 21:21 |
| hrw | jsmanrique: there is a work on n800 emulation for qemu | 21:22 |
| dneary | jsmanrique: Me too - I'd love to see integration with google calendar & gmail for address books & calendar. | 21:22 |
| dneary | Which is available off-line | 21:22 |
| DevilsReject | why isn't the main thing the device supposed to be used for, the browser, recieving regular updates instead of the platform features like pim and what not? | 21:22 |
| qgil | ok, now you stop a bit so I can answer one by one, please :) | 21:22 |
| jsmanrique | I am using "easy" framework and it's great, since apps run same way in my desktop than in my n8*0 | 21:22 |
| jsmanrique | qgil: sorry ;-) | 21:23 |
| qwerty12_N800 | stop. it's hammer time. | 21:23 |
| hiteck | lcuk, yeah, well, opengl es is okay for blitting, provided that you can keep your textures resident most of the time. | 21:23 |
| RST38h | qgil: a2dp support status? | 21:23 |
| RST38h | coming? if yes, when? if no, why? | 21:23 |
| lardman | hiteck: I think the point is that the hw is sat there doing nothing, we'd like to be able to use it | 21:24 |
| qgil | DevilsReject: the integration of services between Nokia devices, Nokia platforms and the PC has a lot to do with the Trolltech acquisition process and the interest in Qt - but I don't know if there will be shortcuts and big improvements in the short term, say this year, for the tablets | 21:24 |
| lardman | RST38h: my impression from the ml was no. Will look for the post. | 21:24 |
| MoRpHeUz | qgil: what is your opinion about communication in maemo's community at all ? How do you think that we can improve the communication between the community's members ? (I'm not talking about nokia <-> maemo but maemo <-> maemo). I ask this because I think that sometimes there are too many channels and the knowledge is too spread in this channels (i.e.: some people write good stuff @ ITT but forget that there is a good wiki to post | 21:24 |
| MoRpHeUz | this stuff, etc...) | 21:24 |
| qgil | qwerty12_N800: no idea (and congratulations, man) ;) | 21:24 |
| qwerty12_N800 | Ah, ok, thanks! :) | 21:24 |
| qgil | lcuk: what "startup issue" do you mean? | 21:25 |
| eocanha | I sum myself to the previous gps improving petition. A quicker first start will make the N810 even more appealing | 21:25 |
| lcuk | qgil, starting up the gps after power on. | 21:25 |
| qgil | jsmanrique: the famous PIM stuff | 21:26 |
| lardman | RST38h: I was of course talking about on the DSP. http://lists.maemo.org/pipermail//maemo-developers/2008-May/017644.html | 21:26 |
| jsmanrique | qgil: :-) | 21:26 |
| qgil | lcuk: mmm no idea, I don't have problems I have noticed | 21:26 |
| qgil | PIM | 21:26 |
| freality | qgil: the issues with gps also frustrate me. is there much development effort being focused on this? | 21:26 |
| jsmanrique | qgil: I use dates and to-do from OH, and they are great... but no sync with my Nokia phone :-/ | 21:26 |
| RST38h | lardman: aha | 21:27 |
| qgil | look, for Nokia the PIM thing belongs basically to the ESeries and the enterprise context - of course there are exceptions, but this should tell you why it is not in the top of the lists | 21:27 |
| hiteck | lardman, yes, I agree that it doesn't really make any sense. I work for nokia in a graphics hw/sw team and this driver issue irks me quite a bit too :) | 21:27 |
| jsmanrique | qgil: I would expect some kind of syncml support to sync my nokia devices ... | 21:27 |
| lardman | hiteck: glad we've got some people on the inside too :) | 21:27 |
| RST38h | qgil: another question: how about properly hildonizing Gnumeric and AbiWord and making them part of the standard firmware? | 21:27 |
| qgil | but Diablo+1 and following releases should start giving you what you need - and at the end of the process perhaps what you get is much better than what today PIM is | 21:28 |
| Navi | RST38h, there is an Abiword dev working on the hildon interface. | 21:28 |
| DevilsReject | jsmanrique: forget "syncing" there should be real time, IP based, remote device access | 21:28 |
| jsmanrique | about the hildon-ui, it should be more... thumb-friendly :-) | 21:28 |
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| qgil | (I'm still having lack, please bare with my sloweness trying to answer all of you + read com ments + write) | 21:28 |
| jsmanrique | DevilsReject: and what about off-line mode? | 21:28 |
| RST38h | Navi: Still not usable though | 21:28 |
| flo_lap | hi all | 21:28 |
| Navi | RST38h, have you tried it lately? | 21:28 |
| Navi | er, a recent build. | 21:29 |
| Navi | It's pretty usable to me. | 21:29 |
| RST38h | Navi: crashed on me as far as a month ago | 21:29 |
| RST38h | if it works, why is it not in extras | 21:29 |
| qgil | jsmanrique: "Is that a job for Nokia or for us the community though?" | 21:29 |
| jsmanrique | DevilsReject: of course, bu having a standard framework (vcard, etc.) we could use google api, remember the milk api, foaf api, or whaever.. | 21:29 |
| Navi | RST38h, there are bugs to iron out :P | 21:29 |
| thp | qgil: when will the thumb keyboard bug with text cell renderers (to edit table cells, e.g. in maemopad+ or todo) be fixed? how are priorities assigned inside of nokia to such bugs? | 21:29 |
| jsmanrique | qgil: I think both | 21:29 |
| qgil | well, one thing we need to improve ourselves is to point out the areas we want to focus so it is clearer for the community where to work if there is an interest | 21:29 |
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| RST38h | Navi: Gnumeric is far from perfect too, but it is in extras | 21:29 |
| DevilsReject | qgil: it is nokia's job to provide the best user experiance out of the box, i don't care how brilliant the community is, the device should be tip top from day one. | 21:30 |
| qgil | I tried... but there was more internal homework needed in order to make this properly | 21:30 |
| lardman | qgil: +1 and vice versa too? | 21:30 |
| qgil | if you notice lately I'm a bit more silent than last year | 21:30 |
| jsmanrique | qgil: having the PIM framework api base, it wouldn't be hard bulding wrappers for other api's like google o rtm | 21:30 |
| hrw | qgil: question which probably interest many people: will maemo core provide list of maemo components with their open/close status + reasons for each component why it is closed. This would help to improve maemo and/or boot non-maemo systems on NIT. | 21:30 |
| Navi | RST38h, up to the developers when to release their apps, really. | 21:30 |
| qgil | this is why last year I discussed a lot with the outisde but then had little time to actually do things internally | 21:30 |
| jsmanrique | qgil: perhaps adding some semantic web technologies inside ;-) | 21:30 |
| qwerty12_N800 | I believe nokia will at some stage put qt/qtopia due to aquisition afaik. Will nokia make another input method? Atm, from what I can see current hildon-input-method only supports python & gtk 2.0. Will one be made that supports all e.g xkbd? | 21:30 |
| qgil | this year I got my lesson, I also learned how things work inside and I'm trying to be more useful bringing the community voice internally and the other way round, more with actions than words | 21:31 |
| RST38h | Navi: True. Just wondering if Nokia would be willing to support these two apps and accelerate their development | 21:31 |
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| qgil | ...which is a long way to answwer that I'm confident that after the summer there will be a real OSS/platform roadmap in place and we will keep it up to date to give you an idea of what is the next release coming around | 21:31 |
| DevilsReject | qgil: will you follow the ubuntu release scedule of every 6 months, clear goals, meetings every week, etc. | 21:32 |
| qgil | jsmanrique: please look at the scratchbox2 project and the maemo SDK+ project in garage + the plugins for Eclipse and python, they will change the idea wou have now about Scratchbox1 | 21:32 |
| Andy80 | jsmanrique: I'll try to translate my slides about "PyMaemo" talk into english, so you all can read them | 21:34 |
| jsmanrique | qgil: foaf technologies could be used to describe me and my friends, and addinok, I have to leave now... I hope we can keep in contact by email ;-) | 21:34 |
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| qgil | DevilsReject: the browser team made a lot of work for Chinook and now they are doing a lot of work for Diablo+1 - you can't come up with firm major releases for big and critical components like this one | 21:34 |
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| qgil | RST38h: a2dp is coming, but don ask me when because I really don't know | 21:35 |
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| RST38h | understood. good to know. | 21:35 |
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| DevilsReject | qgil: still forking the mozilla code and working on it in house or plan to be more upstream? | 21:35 |
| qgil | MoRpHeUz: finally a question fully in my domain ;) | 21:36 |
| MoRpHeUz | qgil: =) | 21:36 |
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| qgil | there is a lot of room for improvement in the maemo community, and the community itself can handle a lot of that | 21:36 |
| Navi | DevilsReject, timeless blinks into the channel every so often. He's really the best person to ask | 21:37 |
| qgil | this is why we have gone for funding Niels, Dave, Andre and Karsten instead of trying to hire 4 Nokia employees based in Helsinki | 21:37 |
| qgil | not because they will do all the work but because they can be catalizators, facilitators, fermentators and other -tors of many community activities | 21:37 |
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| Myrtti | :-D | 21:38 |
| qgil | then a piece of advice: let's focus on what matters | 21:38 |
| lardman | Any chance of more alpha/beta code releases (along the lines of the browser & IM stuff, but possibly less mature), or is there a worry about the perceived quality of the sw product? | 21:38 |
| qgil | I mean, what matters to an open source community | 21:38 |
| MoRpHeUz | qgil: yeah, that was great...I really enjoy these guys work. But in terms of marketing...do you think that we can do something to make developers use more our resources ? wiki, etc... ? | 21:38 |
| qgil | hardware discussions out, consumer discussions out, 3rd party proprietary software out | 21:38 |
| DevilsReject | i think weekly images are needed, like what opera does for their browser | 21:38 |
| MoRpHeUz | (as I'm not a marketing guy...it's difficult to think in some strategy that will make devs contribute more @ maemo.org instead of other places..) | 21:39 |
| qgil | 3rd party apps in, upstream oss projects in, essential Nokia binaries in... this kind of stuff | 21:39 |
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| lardman | MoRpHeUz: You're a Nokian? | 21:39 |
| Navi | DevilsReject, eh. timeless again :P | 21:39 |
| MoRpHeUz | lardman: no...indt guy | 21:39 |
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| dneary | qgil: "fermentators" - I like that :) | 21:39 |
| lardman | MoRpHeUz: ok | 21:39 |
| X-Fade | DevilsReject: That is possible with SSU in diablo.. | 21:39 |
| qgil | also documenting better things, so we don't have same questions and same rants every 3 weeks | 21:39 |
| hrw | qgil: will list of open/close will exists? | 21:39 |
| MoRpHeUz | qgil: exactly! you got the point | 21:39 |
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| lcuk | any idea yet when diablo will emerge? | 21:40 |
| MoRpHeUz | we are always walking in circles with some discussions.. | 21:40 |
| RST38h | qgil: But the problem is, proper access to hardware, system API updates, support for missing features - they all matter to open source community | 21:40 |
| DevilsReject | X-Fade: so will there be weekly images available for those looking for them? | 21:40 |
| X-Fade | DevilsReject: I didn't say that ;) | 21:40 |
| thp | qgil: when will the mess that maemo.org currently is be cleaned up? documentation should be available like in gnome library, the wiki should be easier to navigate and edit, old pages should go (e.g. the roadmap is really outdated) | 21:40 |
| Navi | DevilsReject, SSU just makes it possible. | 21:40 |
| qgil | about "a good wiki to post", don't tell anybody ;) but http://maemo.org/community/wiki/ - and push Dave to make it as you wish, you can even get admin rights there: it's yours | 21:40 |
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| dneary | MoRpHeUz: I agree with you that there are lots of channels of communication - it can be hard for someone coming to the community to know where the interesting discussions are happening | 21:41 |
| Navi | DevilsReject, it's up to the developers to decide whether or not to provide weekly updates | 21:41 |
| hrw | thp: I heard that there is a work on getting mediawiki instead of that wiki which is used now | 21:41 |
| Navi | That, or management. | 21:41 |
| RST38h | related to maemo.org: when will we have somewhat more centralized repository? I.e. less repositories and more software that is currently not in any repostory - accessible via repository | 21:41 |
| MoRpHeUz | dneary: and what is most difficult is that there are important discussions in all this channels...and that makes life harder hehe | 21:41 |
| thp | mediawiki would be an improvement | 21:41 |
| lardman | Navi: Would developmental code be acceptable for release though, without lots of testing, etc.? | 21:42 |
| RST38h | [good example is Pupnik's game ports] | 21:42 |
| lardman | RST38h: extras + autobuilder | 21:42 |
| Navi | lardman, not in my opinion. But there's a demand :P | 21:42 |
| X-Fade | RST38h: That is a community effort, which I'm trying to work on :) | 21:42 |
| hrw | RST38h: there is maemo extras thing | 21:42 |
| qgil | jsmanrique is gone, but there is a lot of ongoing work on Hildon and Diablo+1 will be much more thumb friendly | 21:42 |
| lcuk | lard, more like sourceforge, all releases available with stable at the top | 21:42 |
| dneary | thp: I plan to migrate much of the wiki content to the new Secret Wiki this month - it's an opportunity to filter and organise what is there too. I'll need help ;) | 21:42 |
| Navi | dneary, awesome | 21:43 |
| lardman | lcuk: but we're asking for development code, not releases (which we get anyway) | 21:43 |
| dneary | Navi: What to help? ;) | 21:43 |
| thp | "Secret Wiki" doesn't sound very "open" to me, though.. | 21:43 |
| qgil | thp: provide bug number to the bugmasters in this chat room - they have license to kick our butts on specific bugs they find especially relevant | 21:43 |
| hrw | thp: content moved, wiki unsecret? | 21:43 |
| lcuk | lardman :) then its not a problem, by developers, for developers. its beta and we know it | 21:43 |
| RST38h | hrw: there is, but a lot of apps are not there | 21:44 |
| Navi | dneary, sure | 21:44 |
| hrw | RST38h: blame packagers | 21:44 |
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| * RST38h blames Pupnik with passion | 21:44 | |
| Navi | The wiki needs to be advertised more, though. | 21:44 |
| qgil | DevilsReject: about "the device should be tip top from day one" | 21:44 |
| lardman | lcuk: yes, but for Nokia the quality of the product is a concern I believe | 21:44 |
| hrw | RST38h: many packagers build packages by hand and do ugly tricks in postinst or forget about them etc. | 21:44 |
| lardman | lcuk: as long as end-users cannot easily install it, we may be ok | 21:44 |
| thp | to the bugmasters: please have a look at https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1163, that's really annoying on chinook | 21:44 |
| MoRpHeUz | qgil: I really think that maemo's wiki is good...but Navi's got a point: the community does not use it...(and here comes the marketing in some way hehe) | 21:44 |
| qgil | look, Nokia could have decided some years ago to do all this work under closed walls and come up with something as great as Nokia is able to do | 21:44 |
| lcuk | it would allow those with an interest to follow progress and offer assistance | 21:45 |
| MoRpHeUz | dneary: I can give some help also | 21:45 |
| qgil | however, since the platform was new and it had a big % of open source software coming from external projects and requiring new ways of working for everybody | 21:45 |
| dneary | thp: I was joking. The capitals were meant to give it away :) | 21:45 |
| liquid217 | Hello qgil: How long will Nokia continue to support the N800? With the advent of inplace updates, can we expect to see many more years of support for it? | 21:45 |
| dneary | MoRpHeUz, Navi: Great! Will I get ye on IRC? Or email? | 21:45 |
| qgil | it was decided to go through an iteration plan involving commercial products in the market but with a higher dose of R&D, and we are still in the middle of it | 21:46 |
| MoRpHeUz | dneary: you can find me @ #maemo, #canola, morpheuz@gmail.com =) | 21:46 |
| qgil | this approach has advantages and disadvantages | 21:46 |
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| thp | dneary: it would be good if you could consolidate ITT's wiki and the maemo wiki into one, nice wiki that is a one-stop-shop wiki for all maemo/IT-related, although I know that ITT is an independent site (I guess?) | 21:46 |
| lardman | qgil: Don't get us wrong, I'm quite impressed with the way things are going | 21:46 |
| hrw | bugmasters: 2899, 2897, 2867 - just from my list | 21:46 |
| andre___ | thp: thanks for the link, let me see what we can do | 21:46 |
| Myrtti | /me hugs her 770 and notes that stores like verkkokauppa still sell it | 21:46 |
| DevilsReject | qgil: got it, in the long term this is the right thing to do since this device catagorey is still hyper niche | 21:46 |
| Cptnodegard | nokia internet tablet without opåen source would be epic fail | 21:46 |
| qgil | one advantage is that all you are getting experienced with this platform and perhaps one day you could tell to your grandsons your adventures hacking that 770 and those N8*0 | 21:46 |
| DevilsReject | Cptnodegard: that isn't true | 21:47 |
| hrw | Cptnodegard: NIT are half-closed now | 21:47 |
| dneary | thp: There's such a volume of messages generated on ITT forums, I'm having trouble keeping up! | 21:47 |
| Cptnodegard | it would end up like the sony mylo or something :p | 21:47 |
| guenther | andre___: That bug actually has been mentioned earlier in here. I believe twice. Though not with bug number. | 21:47 |
| MoRpHeUz | thp: yeah..it's hard for devs to follow ITT... | 21:47 |
| andre___ | guenther: yes, i know | 21:47 |
| hrw | MoRpHeUz: like always with forums | 21:47 |
| DevilsReject | "open" is not a feature, it is a way of working. end users don't care, but the 61 people in this chat do. i think that's something that is going to be hard to overcome. | 21:47 |
| MoRpHeUz | hrw: ;-) | 21:48 |
| qgil | qwerty12_N800: http://maemo.org/news/announcements/view/qt_to_be_supported_in_addition_to_gtk.html and developers willing to use the Qt libraries will have the basics in place | 21:48 |
| thp | dneary: i meant the ITT wiki | 21:48 |
| qwerty12_N800 | qgil, thanks, checking it out | 21:48 |
| hrw | qgil: sorry, but I really want to know: will maemo core provide list of maemo components with their open/close status + reasons for each component why it is closed. This would help to improve maemo and/or boot non-maemo systems on NIT. | 21:48 |
| qgil | by the way, this work will be done in combination with the community guys that already starting putting some Qt love in maemo | 21:48 |
| qgil | lardman: qgil: +1 and vice versa too? - can you explain this question? - I los context at this point :) | 21:49 |
| qgil | about "it wouldn't be hard" questions | 21:49 |
| lardman | I agreed with your comment above | 21:49 |
| qgil | true, a single thing wouldn't be hard, but we are doing plenty of things and believe me if I tell that it is hard to deliver all what we are dleivering in the schedules we have | 21:50 |
| lardman | about Nokia telling us the direction that they want to go | 21:50 |
| qgil | look at OS2006 and look to that Diablo, count the months in between, the devices out... Now look at your preferred software project and see what was the evolution | 21:50 |
| qgil | it is just hard to push a whole platform forward, especially on top of a new form factor in the industry | 21:51 |
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| hrw | qgil: but what wonder is why so big amount of components are closed | 21:51 |
| qgil | now everybody talks about tablets, MIDs and other touchscreen based, Internet centric, horizontally handled devices, but creating this new child is not easy | 21:51 |
| dneary | thp: I understood | 21:52 |
| qgil | and this is why we have to prioritize on things, and this is why you see "your essential feature X" slipping release after release when in fact "it wouldn't be that hard to..." | 21:52 |
| thp | :) | 21:52 |
| lardman | qgil: Are you still scanning the history? If so, should be stop asking questions for a minute or two for you to catch up? | 21:52 |
| Cptnodegard | the real danger for tablets will be when UMPCs drop in price | 21:52 |
| qgil | hrw: "will maemo core provide list of maemo components with their open/close status + reasons for each component why it is closed." | 21:53 |
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| RST38h | Cptn: They already did - Asus EE is ~$400 | 21:53 |
| RST38h | Cptn: and it is essentially a UMPC | 21:53 |
| qgil | yes, and dneary is authorized to harass me if I'm delayed on that | 21:53 |
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| qgil | ;) | 21:53 |
| Navi | lol | 21:53 |
| Cptnodegard | the eee900 maybe | 21:53 |
| lardman | :) | 21:54 |
| dneary | I take my role seriously :) | 21:54 |
| RST38h | it will only get worse as Chinese manufacturers go into a price war | 21:54 |
| hrw | Cptnodegard: I bought n810 instead of eeepc just because it is ARMv6 device and I needed such one for work | 21:54 |
| * dneary sharpens the pointy stick | 21:54 | |
| Andy80 | qgil: I made you a question at beginnin, I hope you had not miss it :) I'll wait, no problem of time :) | 21:54 |
| qgil | DevilsReject: both the Ubuntu and the Debian ways of releasing are very interesting approaches. But none of them have to deal with device launches, and as soon as ypu put hardware in the picture everything changes | 21:54 |
| lardman | dneary: Is this being recorded, so any missed questions can be looked at later on? | 21:55 |
| Navi | lardman, someone's logging it | 21:55 |
| lardman | Navi: cool | 21:55 |
| Navi | I think X-Fade | 21:55 |
| dneary | lardman: I'll be saving a transcript from when I came in | 21:55 |
| dneary | I could mail the whole naked log to the mailing list, but I'm not sure that's valuable | 21:55 |
| hrw | qgil: I had to install ukeyboard to be able to add Polish keymap for n810 hw keyboard. if maemo component would be open then ukeyboard will be not needed as official one could be improved instead. | 21:56 |
| DevilsReject | it isn't. trim it up. | 21:56 |
| dneary | Next time we do this, we should do the Ubuntu way, and have two channels, one for Q&A, one for chatter | 21:56 |
| _berto_ | most of our irc clients are logging it I guess ;) | 21:56 |
| qgil | however, we want (and we need) to work more in platform development to make it more regular and allow related upstream projects, application developers and etc follow us better and be able to do their work and contribute to the platform evolution in a more meaningful way | 21:56 |
| flo_lap | Hmm.. Maemo on eeepc might be interesting :) | 21:56 |
| X-Fade | I'm logging and creating a log on maemo.org asap. | 21:56 |
| Cptnodegard | hrw: for me the eee is useless until it gets a swiwel touchscreen, since one of my main uses for the tablet is books and pdf newspapers, school stuff etc | 21:56 |
| hrw | dneary: or moderated channel with someone who manage queue | 21:56 |
| thp | well, people could go for chatter to #maemo and do the Q&A here | 21:56 |
| forge | Yes | 21:57 |
| Myrtti | ubuntu openweek style | 21:57 |
| qgil | I can't give more details about this, sorry, but have no doubt we know how i.e. Ubuntu works and what would be the beauties of following a platform development process like that | 21:57 |
| dneary | DevilsReject: I'll let X-Fade take care of it :) | 21:57 |
| dneary | Myrtti: That's exactly what I'm talking about | 21:58 |
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| qgil | DevilsReject: I have been explaining in maemo-users how are things going with our Mozilla based browser and the work done by the Mozilla foundation, please check the archives | 21:58 |
| fysa | qgil, I understand that you might not know the status or issues surrounding a release of a proper 3D driver -- but I feel that this is a very important issue for the community/NIT hackers in general, and a huge piece of ammunition in allowing your supportive developers to create the applications, effects and games that will 'wow' your future marketplace. Is this something that you are able to follow-up on for a possible next meeting? | 21:58 |
| fysa | (I apologize if this was asked already) | 21:58 |
| RST38h | qgil: As I understand things, the 770/N8x0 devices were primarily designed as internet access devices. With advent of EE PC et al, is the view of N8x0 usage patterns changing within Nokia? | 21:58 |
| qgil | (in fact I was a bit surprised nobody picked that up out of the list since what was said there is relevant for the many people caring about MicroB and etc - btw, thanks for the interest, feedback and help!) | 21:59 |
| lardman | fysa: it will be addressed this year and we have people on the inside | 21:59 |
| qgil | lardman: alphas and betas | 21:59 |
| lardman | yes | 21:59 |
| lardman | It would be good to be more involved in testing | 22:00 |
| lardman | but will that be ok by Nokia wrt quality of released code? | 22:00 |
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| fysa | wonderful. news thanks, lardman. | 22:00 |
| hrw | qgil: thx for answer | 22:00 |
| qgil | at the beginning Nokia was not used at all to the idea of releasing software that breaks, and there were many concerns about the possibility of damaging the Nokia brand etc, no matter how much open source your platform is etc | 22:00 |
| forge | qgil, i'm not sure if this is your area or not but, is there any internal movement to enhance the usability of the device without stylus but rather make it hugely more finger friendly and scrape the whole desktop idea and maybe move more towards canola/ubuntu mobile (what i've seen mockups of it at least), because i feel that the user interface could use a lot of work to be more userfriendly (like modesty is) | 22:01 |
| qgil | however, things change and the organization learns about some things - remember that trying out things and learning was the reason to do these productr iterations instead of working secretly on Perfect Platform X | 22:01 |
| qgil | the trials of the Mozilla browser and the RTCom update last year went well | 22:01 |
| hrw | forge: I want reverse - to be able to disable that thumb mode crap and have menus etc like it was in os2005/2006/2007 | 22:01 |
| DevilsReject | qgil: thanks for answering most of my questions, but i'm shot and will rest not. look forward to your summary of this chat on your blog and your thoughts on jaiku. good night to you and to everyone else. | 22:02 |
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| lardman | hrw: +1 | 22:02 |
| qgil | the Modest development thing has gone well too | 22:02 |
| lardman | qgil: so this bodes well, I hope | 22:02 |
| thp | rtcomm is really great :) | 22:02 |
| hrw | forge: many people came to nokia tablets from PDA devices | 22:02 |
| Cptnodegard | IMO i dont like thumb usage. the screen gets smudgy and if you watch videos, read books etc thats incredibly annoying | 22:02 |
| qgil | so yes, more of this will come, and eventually we might have more and better alpha-beta releases | 22:02 |
| lardman | qgil: thanks | 22:02 |
| MoRpHeUz | forge, hrw, lardman: I think that both worlds can live together... | 22:02 |
| andre___ | hrw: the polish keyboard issue is covered by bug 2899, right? | 22:03 |
| Navi | qgil, I remember it was said that the NITs were a five step thing and that the N800 was step three. Is the WiMax Edition step four? | 22:03 |
| qgil | MoRpHeUz: "do you think that we can do something to make developers use more our resources" yes :) | 22:03 |
| MoRpHeUz | forge, hrw, lardman: we have people coming from PDA world and also people who left our world to go to iphone world, so let's make this open also... =) | 22:03 |
| MoRpHeUz | qgil: any ideas how ? =) | 22:03 |
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| forge | To some extend yes but for now you lack a huge deal of userinterface if you don't use the stylus and this shouldn't be happening. I don't care if people come from pda's, they can like it as much as they want, just because you've been using something for the past 5 years doesn't mean you can't do it better | 22:04 |
| lardman | MoRpHeUz: agreed - would be good to have a control panel setting for the "start menu", etc | 22:04 |
| hrw | andre___: 2899 yes | 22:04 |
| dneary | I'm going to head off now too | 22:04 |
| dneary | Night all! | 22:04 |
| qwerty12_N800 | night | 22:04 |
| forge | So yes, to get some customizability to the user experience would be nice | 22:04 |
| hrw | n8 dneary | 22:04 |
| dneary | I'll leave the window open to log | 22:04 |
| lardman | forge: agreed | 22:05 |
| qgil | dneary: "fermentators" - I like that" - well, only some urbanites ignore that shit is good to make grow things | 22:05 |
| guenther | hah :) | 22:05 |
| hrw | forge: os2008 is not thumb friendly yet - scrollbars, lists are stylus mode mostly | 22:05 |
| dneary | qgil: I just didn't realise that was a word | 22:05 |
| Cptnodegard | dont know if anyone has mentioned this qgil but support for USB DACs (soundcards) is something that should be looked into. a lot of people in the mp3 player community is only held back from the tablets by the crappy sound quality | 22:05 |
| hrw | Cptnodegard: sound cards are kernel thing. update kernel and you will get many such cards working | 22:06 |
| andre___ | hrw: i'd personally also love to see that fixed to be able to enter czech letters... | 22:06 |
| lcuk | Cptnodegard, isn't that something that a third party can arrange though? | 22:06 |
| qgil | lcuk: "any idea yet when diablo will emerge?" Talking about release dates is really a sensitive matter, so I can't comment | 22:06 |
| lardman | Cptnodegard: But, is this for Nokia to do, or us? | 22:06 |
| forge | Hrw, hence my question, i want more thumb friendly ui while i don't mind if they make it so that stulys people can be happy too, i'm just happy they can be happy | 22:06 |
| hrw | andre___: install ukeyboard ;) | 22:06 |
| andre___ | hrw: should try :-) | 22:06 |
| qgil | besides, every time I have crossed that line and commented approximated dates the numbers were wrong | 22:06 |
| qwerty12_N800 | lcuk, indeed, fanoush has done it | 22:06 |
| lcuk | qgil, no problem, thanks was just curious | 22:06 |
| hrw | forge: with open maemo it would be possible. with current one it is not | 22:06 |
| qgil | but we are very near, just wait a bit | 22:06 |
| forge | Hrw, but for now the ui is discriminating people who want pure thumb interface | 22:06 |
| Cptnodegard | hrw: last time i looked on the forum someone was orking on it but with no luck | 22:06 |
| lardman | Waht Nokia could do is allow some more flexibility in the built in player so different outputs could be used (e.g. alsa for USB soundcard or a2dp) | 22:06 |
| hrw | andre___: it is done by Czech | 22:06 |
| hrw | lardman: a2dp is also alsa | 22:07 |
| hrw | Cptnodegard: please... forums suxx | 22:07 |
| lardman | hrw: yep, should have used brackets around my OR | 22:07 |
| Cptnodegard | lol | 22:07 |
| JackCrow | Hi Quim. I wonder where you see maemo heading as it is poised to power WIMAX devices, which could really start to take the place of people's phones through various VOIP services. Also are there plans to use maemo in other devices? A smaller, touchscreen phone perhaps? (Kevin on maemo-users, bogart on Jaiku) | 22:07 |
| qgil | RST38h: what I mean is that I don't want to i.e. waste my time in maemo lists discussing why there are X slots for Y format in the N810 compared to the N800 | 22:08 |
| MoRpHeUz | lardman: imho one of the biggest problems in our community is that people tend to not respect that there are a lot of different users out there. as a canola dev I see a lot of it: people just saying that the software is "crappy" because they dont like the thumb mode or just giving "thumbs down" to canola's posts on planet maemo just because they dont like canola. People must understand that the tablet is for a lot of people and | 22:08 |
| MoRpHeUz | people have different needs =) maemo community should be more friendly to it's members and users. =) | 22:08 |
| qgil | or why Skype this and Rhapsody that | 22:08 |
| qgil | you get my point, of course discussing about hardware drivers is totally on topic and worth discussing | 22:08 |
| hrw | MoRpHeUz: I want samba support in canola ;) | 22:08 |
| Myrtti | woo, I managed to make my commandline script work! \o/ | 22:09 |
| qgil | DevilsReject: X-Fade: so will there be weekly images available for those looking for them? | 22:09 |
| MoRpHeUz | hrw: =) me too, but no time =( hehe... | 22:09 |
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| Myrtti | sorry, *almost* offtopic | 22:09 |
| lardman | MoRpHeUz: yes, but people become used to what they are used to; the platform should allow them to choose ideally. I personally agree with hrw and prefer the os2007 stylus interface | 22:09 |
| Navi | Myrtti, *is* offtopic :P | 22:10 |
| qgil | X-Fade doesn't know that, what he means is that until now the only possibility to release platform updates and even many applications in a meaningful way is organizing a whole release, which is a lot of work | 22:10 |
| hrw | it will take year or more to get maemo to be really thumb friendly. and then 800x480 will display less info then 320x240 one | 22:10 |
| MoRpHeUz | lardman: for sure. but people cannot blame those who prefer other interfaces, etc... | 22:10 |
| qgil | the SSU allows to make upgrades of a single package, of a certain amount of packages, and this makes all the work much more flexible | 22:10 |
| lardman | MoRpHeUz: no, but I don't think that is what's happening here | 22:10 |
| qgil | "weekly images" = "weekly releases of the unstable platform version" is a different thing, though | 22:11 |
| qgil | could happen, but many things need to change | 22:11 |
| lardman | qgil: how will you control the use of non-release upgrades then? | 22:11 |
| qgil | but could happen | 22:11 |
| MoRpHeUz | lardman: it's not happening *here* hehe...but I just pointed out some behaviour in the community in general that I personally do not agree... | 22:11 |
| qgil | in fact it would be good what is the real demand for that | 22:11 |
| hrw | qgil: I just hope that one day (before n810 will became such obsolete as 770 is now) we will be able to edit maemo-this or hildon-that to make it work for our use. | 22:11 |
| qgil | I mean, it's is easy to get enthusiastic about the idea but in fact the question is | 22:12 |
| lcuk | qgil, talking about package release, i believe your "individual package updates when stable" would be an ideal compromise allowing people to slowly upgrade | 22:12 |
| qgil | would i.e. upstream projects be able to check better their components and contribute to their stabilizations | 22:12 |
| lardman | qgil: The demand for the alpha/beta packages is that we, the community, would like to see what's going on inside | 22:12 |
| nomis | qgil: I suspect that the cry for weekly images would disappear if the individual components that make up the system can be incrementally updated. | 22:12 |
| lardman | MoRpHeUz: yep | 22:13 |
| qgil | would there be enough vpeopl interested to get the last release and file good quality bugs | 22:13 |
| lardman | qgil: I hope so | 22:13 |
| MoRpHeUz | qgil: about maemo link: any upgrade in mind to avoid that traffic's problems when new images are released, etc.. ? | 22:13 |
| nomis | (Simon Budig, Gimp developer, Maemo user from the beginning, statusbarclock author) | 22:13 |
| hrw | o yes... maemo.org hosting is fragile too much | 22:13 |
| lcuk | MoRpHeUz, if the packages are incremental then there is no major push for a large single file | 22:13 |
| qgil | or would be open some kind of can that the right people wouldn¡t use anyway and in exchange of that we would get amny wannabes getting software that breaks in their devices and then increasing the amount of complaints, confusion, call to Nokia care, returned devices...? | 22:13 |
| qgil | these question are important, every step Nokia does is to improve a current situation - globally | 22:14 |
| qwerty12_N800 | qgil, with ssu, is it possible to make it not reboot if only kernel is installed? i tried it today and it works fine but no reboot if only kernel is flashed. I spoke with fanoush and he confirms initfs when reflashed must be rebooted immediately due to bme, dsme running of it but kernel flash is ok | 22:14 |
| MoRpHeUz | lcuk: sure =) | 22:14 |
| pupnik | please address qgil's question | 22:14 |
| lardman | qgil: Talking of bugs, we can link to hrw's point about open-sourcing components - there are lots of bugs against closed source components; hopefully the community would take it upon themselves to supply patches to the open-source packages | 22:14 |
| qwerty12_N800 | "but no reboot if only kernel is flashed" - but no reboot if only kernel is flashed would be nice | 22:15 |
| qgil | thp: i also want the maemo.org mess be cleaned up asap | 22:15 |
| thp | :9 | 22:15 |
| thp | :) | 22:15 |
| qgil | in fact Nokia mainly wants a maemo.org that is useful to you and makes you happy, satisfied | 22:15 |
| qgil | and this is an area where the community could take over... as much as you want? | 22:16 |
| MoRpHeUz | qgil: agreed | 22:16 |
| thp | i like the way the gnome project handles documentation, for example.. all in one nice (library.gnome.org) place, easy to find, search and read | 22:16 |
| Andy80 | qgil: my name is Andrea Grandi, I'm from Italy and few days ago I kept a talk at PyCon 2 (the Italian Python conference) about "PyMaemo: programming Nokia Internet Tablets with Python", the question, from about 50 people, is often this one "why no PHONE capability inside Nokia Internet Tablets?". | 22:16 |
| X-Fade | Andy80: Because it is not a phone! :) | 22:17 |
| hrw | thp: http://wiki.openzaurus.org/ was nice documentation site | 22:17 |
| qgil | thp: "I heard that there is a work on getting mediawiki instead of that wiki which is used now" sure! | 22:17 |
| pupnik | Andy80: that is a hardware question, been discussed a lot on ITT, not really a maemo topic | 22:17 |
| Andy80 | ok, sorry :) | 22:17 |
| qgil | maemo2midgard mailing list is where the maemo.org development is discussed openly (also open to your participation) | 22:17 |
| Myrtti | why on earth should it have a phone :-> | 22:17 |
| Myrtti | I hate phones | 22:17 |
| qgil | and it was already presented there - currently is a fresh mediawiki install with a maemo logo, and you can take over as much as you want - dneary admins | 22:18 |
| X-Fade | maemo2midgard list can be found here: https://garage.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo2midgard-discussion | 22:18 |
| Myrtti | oh dear, this is something I shouldn't be reading :-> | 22:19 |
| lardman | dneary: For when you see the log; can you add IVA to the list too. It was in my original email. | 22:19 |
| lardman | qgil: What would you like to see the community do? | 22:20 |
| qgil | RST38h: "when will we have somewhat more centralized repository" you are invited to define what is needed - or point the bug that already says this if it exists. Then the Niels & co push and prioritize... and let's see where all this leads. | 22:20 |
| thp | ah, the mediawiki install can already be found on https://wiki.maemo.org/index.php/Main_Page :) | 22:20 |
| qgil | I mean, I can't tell you now that this will happen but I can tell you that having a clear proposal, benefits etc will help getting us started | 22:20 |
| Cptnodegard | if the IT had phone capabilities it would be 10 times more expensive... aka E90 | 22:20 |
| qgil | now it's one of those things, nice to have but not like in the top of anybody's list | 22:20 |
| RST38h | Andy80: for a simpler explanation, imagine sticking that THING to your ear in public | 22:20 |
| Navi | Cptnodegard, 4000 bucks? | 22:21 |
| Navi | yikes | 22:21 |
| Cptnodegard | i just make up stuff but its quite a few times more :) | 22:21 |
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| Navi | :P | 22:21 |
| Andy80 | RST38h: eheh :) well... headset! | 22:21 |
| qgil | MoRpHeUz: "what is most difficult is that there are important discussions in all this channels"... and looking at our internal roadmaps I don't see reasons for this to decrease | 22:21 |
| flo_lap | Cptnodegard: well... would you buy an e90 with maemo? | 22:22 |
| RST38h | Andy80: or an e51 | 22:22 |
| qgil | I think we will need to deal with growth in the future, but again nothing that (successful) community projects haven't dealt with before | 22:22 |
| lcuk | i'm going to finish up my code. qgil, thank you for answering my questions and for braving this audience, i hope to repay the favour at linuxtag. see you there. bye folks | 22:22 |
| RST38h | Andy80: Which you can treat as an old-fashined phone receiver, only without a wire | 22:22 |
| Cptnodegard | flo_lap: no :p too expensive. phone like that, the n95 etc are seriousely overpriced. but at least on the e90 you get a decent screen | 22:22 |
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| qgil | following everything is impossible - or you can follow everything and then have no time left doing a thing | 22:22 |
| MoRpHeUz | qgil: =( hehe | 22:23 |
| nomis | qgil: apropos Linuxtag - will there be a meetup? Maybe even a maemo booth? | 22:23 |
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| lardman | nomis: we need to arrange meetup, etc. | 22:23 |
| qwerty12_N800 | Being a phone would mean operator lockdowns. here's a quote on a operator lockdown "Nokia: could you get out of bed with the operators, they'll die in a couple of years anyway." | 22:23 |
| lcuk_afk | yes we should | 22:23 |
| qgil | dneary: Secret Wiki is not Secret, it is just a matter to follow the public channels ;) | 22:23 |
| lardman | lcuk_afk: will give you a shout when we get round to it | 22:23 |
| lcuk_afk | im there from wednesday dinner to saturday, wednesday is perfect... | 22:23 |
| RST38h | qwerty: "operator lockdowns" basically apply to US, UK, etc | 22:24 |
| lcuk_afk | ill keep this logging in here and read scrollback in a bit | 22:24 |
| Cptnodegard | the iphone had an epic fail in europe because of operator lockdown. noone wants it | 22:24 |
| qwerty12_N800 | RST38h, So different firmwares for each country? | 22:24 |
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| lardman | we're going OT now | 22:24 |
| RST38h | qwerty: no, same firmware, the lock down capability is built in | 22:24 |
| flo_lap | Cptnodegard: Yes its expensive... but I think I would. The device is a good indication for what S60 can do and wher other platforms shpuld be used. | 22:24 |
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| hrw | qwerty12_N800: lockdown is gsm modem part not system | 22:25 |
| acydlord | the iphone is actually breaking a pretty new US law by forcing an operator lock | 22:25 |
| X-Fade | Guys, can we keep it on topic. #maemo is for general chat. | 22:25 |
| andre___ | this really gets OT, maybe #maemo is a better channel | 22:25 |
| qgil | liquid217: "How long will Nokia continue to support the N800?" | 22:25 |
| Cptnodegard | yes back on topic | 22:25 |
| andre___ | or just say that no questions are left ;-)) | 22:25 |
| qwerty12_N800 | X-Fade, skeen, point taken :) | 22:26 |
| qgil | what counts is not the device but the software in it: even if you bought an N800 last year, the clock counts for the latest compatible release, and Diablo is one. | 22:26 |
| RST38h | will it be the last though? | 22:27 |
| qwerty12_N800 | So, will official pan support be put in diablo? | 22:27 |
| hrw | qgil: the device matters too. I can still buy 770 but it is not supported at all | 22:27 |
| qgil | Then we have to see what "support" means, because something that I have learned is that the same word means different things for i.e. Nokia Care and i.e. open source enthusiasts | 22:27 |
| acydlord | the n800 will probably be supported as long as the n810 | 22:27 |
| qgil | and there is even a third element which is | 22:27 |
| qgil | how far are we going to go in the possibility of the community to handle their own releases | 22:28 |
| hrw | qgil: any work on 1024x600 device? :D | 22:28 |
| lardman | qgil: that I like the sound of | 22:28 |
| hrw | qgil: community releases are not possible now | 22:28 |
| Cptnodegard | if the IT had a faster CPU i think the hardware would last longer than i think it will in its current state. but thats just my opinion, i know many make due with the processor speed | 22:28 |
| qgil | all in all I see a long real life cycle specially for the N800 - because in real terms is benefiting from the same timeline that say the N810 WiMAX edition | 22:28 |
| hrw | qgil: 2007he/2008he are not community releases but bunch of nokia provided binaries | 22:28 |
| acydlord | 1024x600 is only one step up from the native res on the NIT | 22:28 |
| lardman | Cptnodegard: OT as this is a sw discussion | 22:29 |
| liquid217 | qgil: thanks for your insight | 22:29 |
| Cptnodegard | lardman: reponse to qgil's "not the device" statement :p | 22:29 |
| lardman | :) | 22:29 |
| acydlord | i still havent reverse engineered my n810 yet, i need to get on the ball | 22:29 |
| qgil | Cptnodegard: "nokia internet tablet without op?en source would be epic fail" - and this is why nobody is considering this possibility | 22:30 |
| Cptnodegard | qgil: must have misunderstood what you said earlier then, with nokia not initially being too happy about the idea because of impacts to the brand name | 22:30 |
| qgil | hrw: "Cptnodegard: NIT are half-closed now" - "half" and "closed" are relative | 22:30 |
| hrw | qgil: nokia internel tablet without closed source == fail anyway | 22:31 |
| andre___ | hrw: qgil spoke about the possibility of community releases in the future, not about the present | 22:31 |
| hrw | andre___: mistical os2012... | 22:31 |
| qwerty12_N800 | I'd like to see *all* closed source stuff oss but i know it will not happen for OT reasons. | 22:31 |
| qgil | that table of components with open/close status should also provide i.e. Kb or lines of code or something so we can see what is the percentage of open/closed | 22:31 |
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| andre___ | hrw: maybe earlier ;-) | 22:31 |
| lardman | qgil: just which components are open/closed and reason why | 22:32 |
| hrw | qgil: for me it can be "hildon-rss-reader | closed | because we do not like to show its code" (as "name | state | reason") | 22:32 |
| qgil | and also the % of Nokia - open source upstream projects (where nobody is stopping you to file patches or become core maintainers, if you are skilled to) | 22:32 |
| thp | ..which would be a bad reason ;) | 22:32 |
| qgil | this would give a good idea of the % of the platform that actually "the community" controls. | 22:32 |
| flo_lap | hrw, qgil: and maybe an additional field if there is an open replacement | 22:33 |
| qwerty12_N800 | Will bb5 parts of n8*0 ever be open sourced? | 22:33 |
| johnx | qgil, I agree. As it is I've run into "oh I'll take a look at that problem...oh wait, closed source" It would be nice to know that in advance... | 22:33 |
| lardman | qwerty12_N800: bb5? | 22:33 |
| forge | I don't think nokia actually needs to specify WHY they have closed source programs, just a list and somekind of a plan for the future to make whole os opensource would good | 22:33 |
| thp | hrw: maybe this list should include a contact person for closed source compontents (i.e. someone at nokia who can be contacted in case of bugs or improvement ideas) | 22:33 |
| hrw | qgil: I would like to be able to provide patch for /usr/share/X11/xkb/symbols/nokia_vndr/rx-44 which adds new keymap without recompiling hildon-input-method things. it is not possible now so bug 2899 is open | 22:33 |
| qwerty12_N800 | lardman, yes. i won't go into it here but it is used. | 22:34 |
| hrw | thp: you mean devnull@nokia.com? | 22:34 |
| lardman | qwerty12_N800: what is it? | 22:34 |
| qgil | hrw: "qgil: but what wonder is why so big amount of components are closed" - let's make that table and let's see how big and why | 22:34 |
| hrw | qgil: it is not a matter 'how much % community control" but rather "how much % of system is closed just because we can" | 22:35 |
| thp | hrw: well, there _should_ be a maintainer of every package.. even the closed source ones | 22:35 |
| qwerty12_N800 | lardman, i'll write on #maemo | 22:35 |
| hrw | thp: #2899 show other way | 22:35 |
| qgil | Cptnodegard: "the real danger for tablets will be when UMPCs drop in price" | 22:35 |
| hrw | qgil: I am waiting for such list - will try to remind from time to time | 22:35 |
| hrw | qgil: my poisoned posts appear from time to time on planet maemo ;D | 22:36 |
| qgil | when a new product family comes to the market competitors are not a danger but a proof that it was worth the bet | 22:36 |
| andre___ | hrw: if it's about "closed just because nokia can", the entire platform would be closed. i guess that's really not the point | 22:36 |
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| qgil | in my *personal* opinion the competition of the tablets are anything fitting in your pocket | 22:36 |
| Cptnodegard | qgil: very well put :) | 22:36 |
| qgil | not in your pocket: not direct competition | 22:36 |
| qgil | please don't take this as a Nokia statement, just my thought | 22:37 |
| lardman | :) | 22:37 |
| Cptnodegard | yeah thats been one of my reasons against an eee. its small, but not small enough | 22:37 |
| hrw | qgil: my se k750i phone is hard to be bitten by n810 ;) | 22:37 |
| Cptnodegard | with umpc's i meant the likes of the OQO and such devices, vaio tx ++ | 22:37 |
| qgil | RST38h: "it will only get worse as Chinese manufacturers go into a price war" - not that Nokia doesn't know about China and price wars - but let's go back to our topic | 22:37 |
| qgil | or in fact, let me tell you something else about the market | 22:38 |
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| qgil | look, one of the reasons why I decided to move with my whole family from nice sunny Andalusia to nice (and 50% sunny) Helsinki was | 22:38 |
| thp | qgil: for closed packages, there should be a defined, documented way of reporting bugs and sending improvements that can be dealt with | 22:38 |
| Cptnodegard | qgil: i know this is WAY off topic but it just popped into my mind, what should i do about a website selling fake nokia phones? contact nokia or ignore it? | 22:39 |
| qwerty12_N800 | nokla woot | 22:39 |
| qgil | the idea that Nokia knows about the market, and if Nokia was doing this maemo thing then they probably would do it with a market perspective in mind | 22:39 |
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| Navi | qwerty12_N800, lol | 22:39 |
| qgil | I had been involved in many 100% community adventures where "we are right" but actually my sister doesn't care and my neighbour doesn't even know | 22:39 |
| hrw | thp: s/improvements/ideas? | 22:39 |
| qgil | Nokia can do good and other things, but my sistes ends up caring and my neighbour knows for sure | 22:40 |
| thp | hrw: well, ideas = feature requests = not going to be implemented anyway (most likely) | 22:40 |
| qgil | and this is what I still think that is going to be Nokia's main contribution to the open source community | 22:40 |
| qgil | and this is not something many free software star projects can do alone, no matter how great they are and how good their products are | 22:41 |
| nomis | qgil: one maybe indiscrete question: recently quite some people have left the maemo team at Nokia, maybe it is just coincidence that they all left at the same time. How would you judge the mood inside the Maemo team? | 22:42 |
| qgil | so the useful thing here is to find the balance between what would be 100% right from a pure free software community perspective and what is 100% from a pure corporate & mass market perspective, and see where these dialectics bring us | 22:42 |
| qgil | Andy80: please repeat your question, I'm having big backlog | 22:42 |
| Andy80 | qgil: it was about the "phone" functionality, but another one replied already... anyway it was this question: | 22:43 |
| Andy80 | qgil: my name is Andrea Grandi, I'm from Italy and few days ago I kept a talk at PyCon 2 (the Italian Python conference) about "PyMaemo: programming Nokia Internet Tablets with Python", the question, from about 50 people, is often this one "why no PHONE capability inside Nokia Internet Tablets?". | 22:43 |
| Andy80 | already replied by RST38h | 22:43 |
| qgil | hrw "if maemo component would be open then..." In fact this is the typ of argumentation that helps having components opensourced | 22:44 |
| qgil | if it's useful for you, for many others and also for Nokia because of A, B, C, then things move easier | 22:44 |
| keesj | re | 22:44 |
| qgil | opening because of the sake of opening doesn't work well as an argument in a corporate context where there are numbers and reasons behind anything | 22:45 |
| hrw | qgil: I did lot of opensource hacking to get misc environments working better on devices owned by me. one of OPIE releases was done with only my improvements to get it more usable on VGA devices (removed lot of QVGA hardcoded stuff to get it work nice on qvga, vga and higher) | 22:45 |
| lardman | qgil: Do bugs against a closed component count? | 22:45 |
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| qgil | fysa: proper 3D driver - push the topic to the "Nokia what is going on" list dneary is preparing and we will try to answer accordingly | 22:46 |
| lardman | fysa: http://lists.maemo.org/pipermail//maemo-developers/2008-May/017643.html | 22:47 |
| fysa | thanks for the response, qgil. lardman provided some information for me earlier that made my day. | 22:47 |
| lardman | fysa: better read the scroll-back lest I've over egged it :) | 22:48 |
| qgil | RST38h: Nokia has a flexible plan with the tablets and Nokia looks at customer feedback, competitors, market trends... have no doubt Nokia knows how to listen at this level | 22:48 |
| thp | qgil: how does an open source developer go about getting a discounted device from the device program, or is this already obsolete? | 22:49 |
| X-Fade | thp: You are a few months too late for that.. | 22:49 |
| _berto_ | he's probably thinking about the next one :-D | 22:50 |
| forge | I will gladly sell my N770 for you in a mere 999$, a real bargain! | 22:50 |
| qgil | forge: "thumb usability" is a priority, yes | 22:50 |
| acydlord | thp, for the n8x0 they did it during the initial release, and they posted information on the maemo homepage with instructions | 22:50 |
| thp | ah, ok. thanks :) | 22:50 |
| forge | qgil, is there any ideas as to what other's feared that while bringing thumb usability it will make stulys not so usable anymore | 22:51 |
| forge | qgil, Meaning two modes to the whole ui, one bloated for thumb with some extra effects and one tinier for stulys :o | 22:51 |
| forge | For instance | 22:51 |
| qgil | Navi: "Is the WiMax Edition step four?" nope | 22:52 |
| Navi | Rats | 22:52 |
| Navi | qgil, what's step four anyways? | 22:52 |
| lardman | fysa: 20:15 BST (GMT+1) is the time to look at | 22:52 |
| acydlord | qgil any idea if those of us with a standard n810 will be able to purchase the wimax radio to add into our devices? | 22:52 |
| X-Fade | Navi: You know you won't get an answer ;) | 22:53 |
| hrw | qgil: speaking about developer programs... I need one clear answer. is it open to anyone or is it open to people which live in countries where nokia sell tablets? | 22:53 |
| Navi | X-Fade, doesn't hurt to ask | 22:53 |
| Navi | :D | 22:53 |
| qwerty12_N800 | offer some $... | 22:53 |
| hrw | qgil: I heard second answer each time (also on your blog) so I did not apply and bought one in UK some time later. | 22:53 |
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| fysa | lardman, that was information enough to be hopeful. thanks. | 22:54 |
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| SimoHillo | /commands | 22:55 |
| qgil | Cptnodegard: USB DAC no idea, file enhancement requests if it doesn't exist and make sure your maemo gateway push it in the list as it deserves. | 22:55 |
| qgil | JackCrow: I can only say that the future of this platform has many possibilities today - but I still have to see one that isn't interesting and exciting (full disclaimer: I'm obviously biased) | 22:56 |
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| JackCrow | haha, thanks Quim. WIMAX networks will really open up some mroe possibilities, and I'm looking forward to that | 22:58 |
| qgil | lardman: qgil: how will you control the use of non-release upgrades then? | 22:58 |
| qgil | ask details to mariusv :) I don't know them but I know that process is as important or more than the pure apt-get functionality itself - but someone solved the equation and this is why we are having SSU now | 22:58 |
| lardman | ok, thanks | 22:59 |
| qgil | "hrw: qgil: I just hope that one day (before n810 will became such obsolete as 770 is now) we will be able to edit maemo-this or hildon-that to make it work for our use." | 22:59 |
| qgil | my personal hope as well - now please get rid of many smallish discussion and concentrate bigger brain and work on this one and chances to get it done are there | 23:00 |
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| qgil | discussing about how evil Nokia is doesn't help, really - you know what I mean :) | 23:00 |
| hrw | qgil: I know ;) | 23:00 |
| qgil | lardman: "The demand for the alpha/beta packages is that we, the community, would like to see what's going on inside" | 23:01 |
| qgil | sure, but the amount of work and risks and incognitos and... to be taken for offering this is not trivial | 23:01 |
| qgil | therefore, the door is not closed but there needs to be clear and kind of measurable arguments to push this changes forward | 23:02 |
| lardman | I know, hence the question above - how can such releases be controlled to ensure they don't reach end-users; I hope something can be sorted out | 23:02 |
| qgil | and it's not about saying "the community can help you stabilize the software" - we know how Debian, Ubuntu, GNOME, Mozilla, Qt etc work | 23:02 |
| qgil | it's about measuring who would really use and contribute this now if we would release it | 23:03 |
| qgil | and in 6 months, and 1 year and... | 23:03 |
| qgil | and would the freedesktop.org upstream projects care about this, or GNOME, or... | 23:03 |
| qgil | and this kind of questions that go beyond "what would be ideal" | 23:04 |
| qgil | in similar lines, getting all the time direct comparisons with Debian or Ubuntu or [your beloved project] are helpful, but the special characteristics of maemo need as much or more investigation and discussion - because there is a lot of things new in this game | 23:05 |
| acydlord | ahh, another question. Is the annoying volume limiting with the headset plugged in going to be removed in diablo? | 23:06 |
| Navi | acydlord, I don't think so | 23:06 |
| Navi | but that keeps you from blasting your ears off accidentally | 23:06 |
| qgil | qwerty12_N800: again, technical details about ssu to be asked to mariusv - what I know is that reboot is needed only when the core system package is updated, since it doesn't work exactly like in a linux desktop | 23:06 |
| acydlord | it also keeps me from hearing my skype conversations in a dead silent room with my volume all the way up lol | 23:07 |
| lardman | qgil: I'm really only after releases if they offer something useful to the developer - introducing some new component/feature; though it's always nice to see that something is happening behind the scenes from time to time as well. | 23:07 |
| qwerty12_N800 | qgil, ah, ok. anywhere to catch him 'cept his blog. thanks :) | 23:07 |
| qgil | Andy80: "why no PHONE capability inside Nokia Internet Tablets?" because Nokia know a lot about phone capability and decided that this was the right thing to do | 23:08 |
| X-Fade | qwerty12_N800: Just ask your questions on maemo-developers mailing list.. | 23:08 |
| GeneralAntilles | and I'm thankful for that decision every day. . . . :D | 23:08 |
| lardman | :) | 23:08 |
| qwerty12_N800 | X-Fade, thanks, will do | 23:08 |
| X-Fade | qwerty12_N800: That way we will all benefit from the information shared. | 23:08 |
| Andy80 | qgil: ok :) | 23:09 |
| Andy80 | thanks | 23:09 |
| qgil | lardman: qgil: "What would you like to see the community do?" | 23:09 |
| qgil | have fun | 23:09 |
| lardman | :) | 23:09 |
| qgil | understand why things are the way they are | 23:09 |
| Navi | Woo, having fun is my favorite thing to do! | 23:09 |
| lardman | qgil: with your help | 23:09 |
| qgil | understand what they can handle, what they can change, what they can own | 23:10 |
| lardman | qgil: and explanation | 23:10 |
| qgil | understand what is not worth discussing (especially again and again), understand more about companies like Nokia and the market it operates | 23:10 |
| qgil | but mostly have fun, and come up with great things | 23:11 |
| qgil | some of them crazy hacks, some of them seeds for good products in the market | 23:11 |
| lardman | qgil: I fear the discussing again and again thing may just be part of being a developer wanting to get to the bottom of a problem ;) | 23:11 |
| qgil | did I say have fun? :) | 23:11 |
| qgil | this is why I see as a priority to come up as a community with a single list of things that make you unhappy and only nokia can solve | 23:12 |
| qgil | another interesting list is that one prioritizing the things that makes you unhappy but actually Nokia is not needed to solve them | 23:13 |
| GeneralAntilles | Hehe, that, I think, we can do. | 23:13 |
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| johnx | a list should be doable | 23:14 |
| jukey | hello, will there be a logfile of this chat available tomorow? its quite very interesting but i have to sleep and don't know if pidgin on maemo will run the whole night ;-) | 23:14 |
| lardman | jukey: yes it's being logged | 23:14 |
| qgil | (I'm still fighting backlog - will continue until I'm done with the answer coming before 23:59h :) ) | 23:14 |
| johnx | I'm most interested in the closed source parts of Maemo that keep it from running well on hardware platforms besides the tablets | 23:14 |
| lardman | johnx: it's just splitting it into what Nokia need to do and what we need to do :) | 23:14 |
| hrw | qgil: ;D | 23:15 |
| jukey | thx lardman | 23:15 |
| keesj | qgil: thanks for the moment | 23:15 |
| JackCrow | thanks again for doing this Quim, you're working extra hard tonight! | 23:16 |
| GeneralAntilles | ^^^ | 23:16 |
| qgil | qwerty12_N800: So, will official pan support be put in diablo? dunno, sorry | 23:16 |
| andre___ | yeah, kudos! | 23:16 |
| qgil | "hrw: qgil: the device matters too. I can still buy 770 but it is not supported at all" | 23:16 |
| lardman | qwerty12_N800: but that should be a question you can add to the "Would like to know the status of (was RE: Corporate ownership ofopen source projects [LWN])" email thread | 23:16 |
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| qgil | the device is supported and your guarantee applies - it is the OS2006 that is not officially supported anymore | 23:17 |
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| qgil | hrw: "qgil: any work on 1024x600 device?" before attempting to answer your question: 1024x600 fitting in your pocket, do the math and good luck with your eyes | 23:18 |
| qgil | hrw: qgil: 2007he/2008he are not community releases but bunch of nokia provided binaries | 23:18 |
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| qgil | why insisting on this? do you think we don't know what a community release is? | 23:19 |
| hrw | qgil: I got that 770 without warranty card (from MDK on fosdem 2007) so guarantee does not matter. and there is no supported system release for it | 23:19 |
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| qwerty12-rollin | sorry, hildon-input-method messed up. after qgil answering pan question, i didn't recieve anything. | 23:19 |
| qgil | this is why I'm talking about how far we could go with releases maintained by the community, because I'm not talkiing about a N8*0 HE or something | 23:19 |
| hrw | qgil: every time when I read what is in 2007he or 2008he it looks like 'from 2007 this, this, this, that and that from 2006 to make it working at all'. | 23:20 |
| hrw | qgil: in normal (open source) way it would have 2007 components with only required *closed* parts from 2006. | 23:20 |
| lardman | qwerty12-rollin: I said you should ask on the mailing list | 23:20 |
| qgil | Cptnodegard: "impacts to the brand name" | 23:21 |
| qwerty12-rollin | lardman, i plan to :) X-Fade put me on the idea | 23:21 |
| qgil | Nokia and Debian are both brands. Brands tell many things. Debian doesn't recall at to the values Nokia brings and the other way round. Therefore asking Nokia to have under the umbrella something that responds to i.e. Debian values and ways of working is not easy from a marketing and brand point of view | 23:22 |
| qgil | then again, things are doable | 23:22 |
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| qgil | and the good thing is that in the meantime "maemo" has moved from a random generated string to a brand itself | 23:23 |
| qgil | and under the maemo umbrella some things can be done that probably don't fully respond to Debian brand values or Nokia brand values but get a bit from both | 23:23 |
| qgil | qwerty12_N800: "I'd like to see *all* closed source stuff oss but i know it will not happen for OT reasons." | 23:24 |
| qgil | c'man the reasons are *fully on-topic!* | 23:24 |
| lardman | can we know the reasons then? | 23:25 |
| qwerty12-rollin | Hehe, i made a long typing on bb5 in #maemo. involves hardware, i'll drag it up | 23:25 |
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| johnx | for example the reasons for the browser ui being proprietary would be interesting to know | 23:26 |
| lardman | and the media player | 23:26 |
| lardman | and dsme if we could stretch to it ;) | 23:26 |
| qgil | free software developers willing to see open source code in mainstream / consumer market products need to understand that there is a lot more beyond code: company investments, competitive advantages, technology control, milestones & deadlines, patents, productization, reuse of components and what not | 23:26 |
| qwerty12-rollin | "lardman, bb5 = baseband 5. it is security system used in nokia phones (unlocking etc). N8*0 has bb5 stuff in it, e.g retu and tahvo which can be found in phones like n70 e.g. 810w will use bb5 security to generate random number. dsme, bme etc interface with it but they are closed because phone hackers would get ideas..." - that's my reasoning on some closed source stuff. i know for sure bb5 is used. | 23:27 |
| johnx | these are things that the community might be motivated to help with *and* they'd be nice to use on other ARM linux devices | 23:27 |
| GeneralAntilles | browser ui being open is one of the user-space things I'm most concerned about. | 23:27 |
| lardman | qgil: yes, but perhaps we need to have it spelled out to us | 23:27 |
| hrw | qgil: umac.ko will be not open due to license. opengl support is not open due to license (if it exists at all) | 23:27 |
| qgil | most of these aren't nice things but they exist - and if you want to make any kind of sustainable business you need to deal with them | 23:27 |
| qgil | if you want profitable or even successful businesses then you need to put double and triple attention to it | 23:27 |
| hrw | qwerty12-rollin: bb5 was hacked already | 23:28 |
| qwerty12-rollin | but nokia isn't gonna help with it... | 23:28 |
| hrw | yep | 23:28 |
| qgil | all this doesn't affect directly the small and large free software projects when they happen at software development only, but as soon as they are integrated and packages for consumer products, they get affected by this very same dynamics | 23:28 |
| lardman | but it would be nice for them to explain why not. I think anyway. | 23:28 |
| hrw | qgil: I can understand closing some components due to license (umac, opengl) but what can be a reason for rss reader I do not understand | 23:29 |
| keesj | qgil: is threre need to competive adventage? din'd the project get started just because of fair for a good open-source alternative? | 23:29 |
| qgil | maturizing the discussion about why Nokia (and the rest of companies in a similar position) does this or that different than [your beloved oss community project] would help moving forward to next things | 23:30 |
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| qgil | flo_lap: hrw, qgil: and maybe an additional field if there is an open replacement | 23:30 |
| qgil | organizae this table in a wiki and then you add what you want :) | 23:30 |
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| flo_lap | qgil: right :) | 23:31 |
| qgil | krw: "how much % of system is closed just because we can" | 23:32 |
| hrw | qgil: if we create such page - how long does it take for nokia to fill it? | 23:32 |
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| qgil | you talk as if Nokia would enjoy using closed components or would not enjoy using open components | 23:33 |
| qgil | open/close is one factor in a decision made by many factors, and that's it | 23:33 |
| juanjo | qgil, do you see any possibility of seeing some nokia teams (e.g. testers, usability guys, designers) helping open source third party apps out there to improve, taking part in the community? | 23:33 |
| hrw | qgil: it is not 'as if Nokia would enjoy using closed components'. I just wonder often why some parts are closed | 23:33 |
| johnx | I think GeneralAntilles and I are both interested in the browser ui. Can you tell us why it's closed? | 23:35 |
| qgil | nomis: "maybe it is just coincidence that they all left at the same time." | 23:35 |
| qgil | ask them :) Another coincidence would be going to the same company, having similar skills and so one | 23:36 |
| nomis | qgil: consider me impressed by your backlog :) | 23:36 |
| qgil | So no coincidences, not the end of the worls either. | 23:37 |
| qgil | We are friends, we are professionals, etc. | 23:38 |
| qgil | "How would you judge the mood inside the Maemo team?" | 23:38 |
| qgil | well, it's not the smallest team I have seen and it has a lot of diversity | 23:38 |
| qgil | good mood, I think this is a fair statement. there is a lot of work and pressure and changes in the Nokia organizations and this and that... | 23:40 |
| qgil | sometimes you feel like all this moving context is exciting, sometimes you feel like perhaps it's moving too much, or in different ways than you would want noiw | 23:40 |
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| hrw | qgil: thx for all answers and patience | 23:40 |
| hrw | have a good night everyone | 23:41 |
| qgil | but I don't think I'm explaining any story different from most of the software teams of this planet | 23:41 |
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| nomis | qgil: yeah, I can imagine. | 23:41 |
| qgil | in other teams you wouldn't even know, but at the end the maemo team is quite open if you compare it to other teams in other companies doing similar things (and this is something the community could appreciate when ranting number X goes in the face of Nokia employee Y who, by the way, fells the same pain but can't even tell you that it's not his fault and etc) | 23:42 |
| qgil | lardman: qgil: Do bugs against a closed component count? | 23:43 |
| qgil | closed/open doesn't mean much | 23:44 |
| qgil | I mean, the reasons why a component is better or worse maintained are other - and hopefully Andre and Karsten will help establishing better rules and quality levels | 23:44 |
| lardman | qgil: as a vote to open the component and let the community patch it I meant | 23:44 |
| qgil | however, one possibility I'm putting on the table is that if we need to prioritize components then those that are open source should be put upfront | 23:45 |
| andre___ | yupp | 23:45 |
| qgil | open source practices with closed source software is trick, sometimes the software is entirely developed by another entity, etc | 23:45 |
| qgil | thp: developer device program is an obsolete topic today | 23:46 |
| qgil | forge: the UI team has this blog somewhere in planet maemo, why not discussing with them about nthumbs, stylus etc - I'm definitely not the person to discuss | 23:47 |
| forge | Iih | 23:47 |
| GeneralAntilles | Oh, on that point, how likely are we to see another discount program for step 5/N900? | 23:47 |
| forge | Will do | 23:47 |
| forge | Cheers <3 | 23:48 |
| qgil | Navi: qgil, what's step four anyways? - what comes between 3 and 5, according to the plans. ;) | 23:48 |
| lardman | GeneralAntilles: Wimax isn't step 4 | 23:48 |
| GeneralAntilles | Uh | 23:48 |
| GeneralAntilles | It's not? | 23:48 |
| lardman | somewhere up above | 23:48 |
| Navi | It's not | 23:48 |
| qgil | acydlord: qgil any idea if those of us with a standard n810 will be able to purchase the wimax radio to add into our devices? | 23:48 |
| Navi | quim already stated it wasn't | 23:48 |
| Navi | I asked | 23:48 |
| GeneralAntilles | Yeah, I don't have a completely log. ;) | 23:48 |
| qgil | never heard about this, but then again some of the WiMAX devices presented until today consist of a normal something with a wimax thingy plugged | 23:49 |
| andre___ | GeneralAntilles: iirc there have been discount programs for all devices so far | 23:49 |
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| qgil | but I'd say this a plain no - but hardware related so... no idea | 23:49 |
| lardman | qgil: There's a thread on ITT discussing what step we're at; anyone got a link? | 23:49 |
| qgil | hrw: qgil: speaking about developer programs... I need one clear answer. is it open to anyone or is it open to people which live in countries where nokia sell tablets? | 23:49 |
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| qgil | the device programs are held by Nokia online shops and they can deliver only to the countries they operate | 23:50 |
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| qgil | ..... and I think I'm done until 12:00!!! let me read the rest... sorry for being so slow | 23:51 |
| GeneralAntilles | Thanks, Quim! | 23:51 |
| Navi | qgil, it's no problem. Thank you for your time :D | 23:52 |
| qwerty12-rollin | guess who just got into locked down diablo repo? | 23:52 |
| Navi | Not qwerty12-rollin | 23:52 |
| Navi | It's not something qwerty12-rollin would advertise | 23:52 |
| qwerty12-rollin | hell yes | 23:52 |
| qgil | lardman: "how can such releases be controlled to ensure they don't reach end-users" the idea is that whoever gets them know perfectly what is going on and doesnt get them just by accident or pressing a web link. Doable, but haven't thought about details yet | 23:52 |
| lardman | qgil: I'm interested to sit in on the discussion :) | 23:53 |
| qgil | lardman: "I'm really only after releases if they offer something useful to the developer" | 23:53 |
| qgil | offering releases that look ugly and in complete to end users i.e. "where is Flash!", there is not even [my favourite game] is a way to deal with this | 23:53 |
| lardman | I was meaning the intermediate, alpha/beta releases, and trying to say that I was after this sort of release if it offers us something to work with, but not just for the hell of it | 23:54 |
| qwerty12-rollin | btw, i will not tell how to get into repo but it's a hint :) | 23:55 |
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| Myrtti | /me notes it's late in Hervanta | 23:57 |
| hrw|gone | qgil: ok, but can I apply if I find someone who will work as a proxy between me and nokia online shop? | 23:58 |
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| qgil | (((sorry, wet & hungry baby crying required immediated attention))) | 23:58 |
| Navi | k | 23:58 |
| hrw|gone | qgil: my daughter sleeps for over 2h now ;) | 23:58 |
| nomis | hrw|gone: the last developer programs the coupons weren't bound to a specific person and I think a few proxies worked. | 23:58 |
| flo_lap | qgil: heh... what a well known situation :) | 23:59 |
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| --- Log closed Wed May 14 00:00:23 2008 | ||
| --- Log opened Wed May 14 00:00:23 2008 | ||
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| * hrw|gone -> sleep | 00:00 | |
| qgil | hrw: qgil: I got that 770 without warranty card (from MDK on fosdem 2007) so guarantee does not matter. and there is no supported system release for it | 00:00 |
| hrw|gone | baby sleeps so it is good choice to sleep too | 00:01 |
| qgil | so you got a tablet for free and still complaining? ;) | 00:01 |
| hrw|gone | qgil: I complain to closeness of maemo due to that | 00:01 |
| hrw|gone | qgil: I cannot run non-maemo system on it | 00:01 |
| hrw|gone | qgil: no wifi, no battery etc | 00:02 |
| qgil | hrw: qgil: in normal (open source) way it would have 2007 components with only required *closed* parts from 2006. | 00:02 |
| qgil | I believe the cut is not that clear when you have a jump of processor and a related API break in between, but well | 00:03 |
| hrw|gone | qgil: os2007 and os2008 does not make use of armv6 features present in omap24xx. only dsp is different. | 00:04 |
| hrw|gone | qgil: normally I would recompile os2007 components for omap1710 if possible | 00:05 |
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| qgil | keesj: qgil: is threre need to competive adventage? din'd the project get started just because of fair for a good open-source alternative? | 00:06 |
| hrw|gone | bye | 00:06 |
| qgil | well, no matter how much open source you use, you still want to use the competitive advantage you (think you) have, because at the end people go to the shops or not, and they buy your product or others | 00:07 |
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| qgil | hrw: qgil: if we create such page - how long does it take for nokia to fill it? | 00:07 |
| qgil | no idea but less that if it's not created | 00:07 |
| lardman | :) | 00:08 |
| qgil | I want that list out as much as you, it would really help moving forward to useful discussion and work from all sides | 00:08 |
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| qgil | juanjo: qgil, do you see any possibility of seeing some nokia teams (e.g. testers, usability guys, designers) helping open source third party apps out there to improve, taking part in the community? | 00:08 |
| keesj | time-to-bed | 00:08 |
| qgil | yes, I see this happening with brilliant OSS 3rd party apps | 00:09 |
| qgil | note that Nokia is already helping and contributing in many community projects, but in the platform level | 00:09 |
| lardman | There are probably two parts to that list - items that stop the platform running using a different OS (e.g. Angstrom) and items that it would be nice to be able to patch; I'm sure we can sort something out on the ml | 00:09 |
| juanjo | that would be great, cause some of the great developers/companies out there lack some of the profiles nokia does have inhouse. But yes, I know Nokia is contributing a lot already :) | 00:10 |
| qgil | and we need to make this more visible because (personally) I'm starting to get tired of reading about 'Nokia taking and not giving' kind of comments - done in good faith but also without all the knowledge | 00:10 |
| juanjo | qgil, it's not my case, I think nokia has been one of the main contributors in GNOME and other projects during the last 3 years | 00:11 |
| qgil | why things are closed fall generally in four areas (if my brain recalls properly at this time of the "day") :) | 00:11 |
| GeneralAntilles | Amen, qgil. | 00:11 |
| lardman | GeneralAntilles: Ramen surely? | 00:12 |
| GeneralAntilles | I demand some! | 00:12 |
| X-Fade | FYI: The maemo-meeting IRC logs will be available at: http://maemo.org/maemo-meeting/ | 00:12 |
| GeneralAntilles | No, people's ignorance of Nokia's contributions to the community. Bad timing. ;) | 00:12 |
| qgil | external or internal licensed code, areas where Nokia wants to differentiate (UI layer tied to Nokia brand/design fits here many times), patent intensive areas, security areas at some extent... something like that | 00:13 |
| qgil | then you have components that made sense to have open in the past but not now, but still it might take time to open source | 00:13 |
| qgil | think also two additional elements | 00:13 |
| juanjo | well my question was more in the direction of helping third party apps to become better with the internal knowledge of nokia | 00:13 |
| qgil | areas where there is not open source alternatives | 00:14 |
| GeneralAntilles | Any specific comments towards why browser-ui is now closed? | 00:14 |
| Myrtti | qgil: I might hold you responsible for those words later this or next week ;-) | 00:14 |
| qgil | and opensourcing stuff needs to take into account if this will be helpful i.e. if then the maintenance and evolution of the component will be shared with a community around | 00:14 |
| qgil | opensource is not only about throwing some code in a repo, as you know | 00:15 |
| qgil | GeneralAntilles: "Oh, on that point, how likely are we to see another discount program for step 5/N900?" | 00:16 |
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| qgil | step 5??? Let us cook the 4 before. :) I think open source developers investing a lot of time, energy and patience and having not much income deserve especial attention, and this kind of thinking is understood by the people making the decisions as well | 00:17 |
| qgil | but every device has a story and every program is tied to a device | 00:17 |
| GeneralAntilles | I was working under the assumption that WiMAX was step 4. | 00:17 |
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| qgil | lardman: qgil: There's a thread on ITT discussing what step we're at; anyone got a link? | 00:18 |
| lardman | s/discussing/guessing | 00:19 |
| qgil | there are ITT advocates pulling me to the right threads from time to time and I do appreciate that since I don't have the physical time to follow the interesting stuff happening there - pull me on this one and I will comment | 00:19 |
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| lardman | GeneralAntilles: Do you happen to know the url for that one? | 00:19 |
| GeneralAntilles | I was looking | 00:20 |
| lardman | thanks | 00:20 |
| GeneralAntilles | and finding lots of thread where I put forth my pet theories | 00:20 |
| GeneralAntilles | but not THE thread. | 00:20 |
| lardman | :D | 00:20 |
| qgil | hrw|gone: qgil: ok, but can I apply if I find someone who will work as a proxy between me and nokia online shop? | 00:20 |
| qgil | each program has its terms and conditions: read them and act consequently | 00:21 |
| qgil | hrw|gone: qgil: my daughter sleeps for over 2h now | 00:21 |
| qgil | finally an interesting comment ;) | 00:21 |
| lardman | :p | 00:21 |
| qgil | my kids went to sleep more hours ago but this one got a wet alarm, which was good to shake my bones | 00:21 |
| lardman | qgil: what time is it there now? | 00:22 |
| Myrtti | the time in Myrtti-landia is... ermm... | 00:23 |
| Myrtti | 2008-05-14 01:23:30 | 00:23 |
| Myrtti | ^ | 00:23 |
| qwerty12-rollin | gmt +2. nice. :) | 00:24 |
| lardman | late | 00:24 |
| qgil | "Myrtti: qgil: I might hold you responsible for those words later this or next week" | 00:24 |
| pupnik | qwerty12-rollin: didn't know you were so young :) | 00:24 |
| _berto_ | early here :D | 00:24 |
| qgil | fine, and of course this is public and I still know what I'm writing | 00:24 |
| Myrtti | qgil :-> | 00:25 |
| qwerty12-rollin | pupnik, :) | 00:25 |
| qgil | however, I think it would be much more useful to concentrate now on having a decent draft of that list | 00:25 |
| qgil | some boxes might still be blank but we can get a nicer sample on concrete examples | 00:25 |
| qgil | and then even myself can help blogging and discussing about this, after nice sleep and proper breakfast ;) | 00:26 |
| qgil | uffffff, and finally got the backlog totally eaten | 00:27 |
| nomis | qgil: congratulations! | 00:27 |
| qgil | sorry for the discussion at two times, but it's been interesting (and fun) | 00:27 |
| lardman | qgil: Thank you for taking the time to come and answer some questions for us | 00:27 |
| pupnik | qgil: thanks | 00:27 |
| nomis | qgil: remind me to spend you a beer at Linuxtag. | 00:27 |
| johnx | qgil, thanks. this is much appreciated :) | 00:27 |
| Myrtti | kiitos Quim | 00:27 |
| qgil | now please do me (actually yourselves) 2 favors | 00:32 |
| qwerty12-rollin | quil: thank you very much | 00:32 |
| qgil | one is to make a balance of this chat today and how can we have a better one in X time, you decide | 00:32 |
| qgil | another one is deeper and you have more time, but is serious | 00:32 |
| qgil | at this time of the day I'm Quim Gil on my own, not a Nokia employee, alright? ;) | 00:32 |
| lardman | yep | 00:32 |
| johnx | understood | 00:32 |
| qwerty12-rollin | understood | 00:32 |
| qgil | I'm curious about the expectations and ambitions of the maemo community | 00:32 |
| Myrtti | roight | 00:32 |
| qgil | really | 00:32 |
| qgil | looking ourselves instead of looking all the time to Nokia what is allwing us to do and etc | 00:32 |
| lardman | qgil: transparency, or understanding of where we're going, for me at least | 00:32 |
| qgil | so please, ask people to go to http://flors.wordpress.com/2008/05/04/the-paradigm-of-the-open-organization/ | 00:32 |
| qgil | there is a checklist | 00:32 |
| qgil | (and some off topic comments, you can forget about them) | 00:32 |
| qgil | it would be interesting to know, if possible, | 00:32 |
| qgil | what would be the MINIMUM and the MAXIMUM level that maemo contributors united in a community would like to have | 00:32 |
| qgil | note that the more you ask, the more you compromise, the more you have to work etc | 00:32 |
| qgil | especially when you are not expecting the Nokia cow to bring milk or not but you organize yourselves really, being Nokia a member more | 00:32 |
| qgil | this is really long term thinking, deep thinking about ourselves as community | 00:32 |
| qgil | but put it in a simple way, this was the intend for such checklist: do you have / want to have this point or not | 00:32 |
| pupnik | good things to think about | 00:32 |
| qgil | glad you like it, mr pupnik :) | 00:33 |
| qgil | and last sentence before falling asleep on the kb | 00:33 |
| lardman | :) | 00:33 |
| lardman | time to bring this to a close I guess | 00:33 |
| qgil | complaining against XXX nobody will get more from XXX than working with XXX | 00:34 |
| qgil | then XXX could be = Nokia or most beings of this planet | 00:34 |
| pupnik | the number of really productive people in that regard has been fairly small | 00:34 |
| qgil | I'm not complaining myself about people complaining about Nokia ;) | 00:35 |
| qgil | I'm only saying that at this point Nokia gets it and it's time to move forward to work on the common understanding and the details | 00:35 |
| qgil | the ride itself is very interesting and it's going to be even more interesting - I believe | 00:36 |
| qgil | zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz | 00:36 |
| GeneralAntilles | Sleep well, qgil. :) | 00:36 |
| pupnik | ok bye | 00:36 |
| qgil | zank you very much for your time and questions and comments | 00:36 |
| nomis | qgil: night :) | 00:36 |
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| Myrtti | gnite qgil | 00:36 |
| jomtom | Thank you for your time | 00:36 |
| johnx | 'night qgil. we really appreciate this | 00:36 |
| lardman | thanks quim, night all | 00:36 |
| qwerty12-rollin | night all | 00:36 |
| -!- guenther|afk [n=guenther@IP-213157009088.dialin.heagmedianet.de] has left #maemo-meeting ["Leaving"] | 00:37 | |
| -!- lardman [n=simon@78.150.127.222] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] | 00:37 | |
| qgil | nite | 00:37 |
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