council-meeting-2009-06-08

timsamoffAll right everyone...15:30
timsamoffLet's get started.15:30
timsamoffThank you all for taking the time to be here.15:30
timsamoff(Hopefully a few others will show up soon.)15:30
timsamoffSince we don't have some of the people who have made the most complaints, this may go pretty quickly.15:31
JaffaIndeed.15:31
timsamoffFirst, I'd like to let everyone know that this will not be a flame war about any single person.15:31
X-FadeI'll put up a log after the meeting, so it can be discussed on talk etc. later.15:31
timsamoffThanks, X-Fade.15:31
timsamoffIf I see any flame-like comments, you will be told to shut up.15:32
timsamoff:p15:32
-!- GAN8001 [n=ryan@32.162.241.178] has joined #maemo-meeting15:32
JaffaShould we start by sharing a URL to the agenda? (for reference)15:32
-!- RST38h [i=marat@trantor.komkon.org] has joined #maemo-meeting15:32
timsamoffSurely.15:32
timsamoffhttp://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=2938415:32
* GAN8001 mutters something about shit S6015:32
Jaffata15:32
-!- GAN800 [n=ryan@166.193.209.103] has quit [Nick collision from services.]15:32
-!- GAN8001 is now known as GAN80015:33
-!- etrunko_ [n=edulima@200.184.118.130] has joined #maemo-meeting15:33
timsamoffFirst on the list is "One place for all communication."15:33
timsamoffI think we have all agreed to the value of this...15:33
timsamoffBut, we need to decide and agree on one location.15:33
dnearyCan I be a pain?15:33
RST38hwouldn't be on the list otherwise15:33
timsamoffYes.15:33
timsamoffOuch.15:33
dnearyI don't quite agree on that15:33
-!- qole [n=qole@d207-6-250-238.bchsia.telus.net] has joined #maemo-meeting15:33
timsamoffdneary, let us know your thoughts.15:33
timsamoffHi, Qole!15:34
qolesorry I'm late15:34
dnearyWell... actually, what I disagree with is that any one communication forum is suitable for all the types of communication we do15:34
timsamoffnp15:34
Jaffatimsamoff: Can I point out that we *do* have one place which all council notifications get put on: the council blog.15:34
timsamoffJaffa: Correct.15:34
timsamoffBut...15:34
dnearyThe forums are not a cure for all ills - in fact, they'll probably introduce other symptoms we don't have right now15:34
timsamoffdneary, explain, please.15:34
RST38hJaffa: that is one-directional though15:34
lcukas long as all the issues are discussed and everyone from respective camps manages to communicate the intent - together you should be the eyes and ears of the council as a whole15:34
dnearytimsamoff: Well...15:35
JaffaSome comms get redistributed other places as well (appropriate tmo threads, bug comments, mailing lists etc)15:35
JaffaRST38h: Well, it can have comments on it; so I'm not sure what you mean?15:35
JaffaRST38h: You want somewhere where a new thread - for the council - can be created by anyone?15:35
dnearyIf the forums are *the* place where everything happens, there will probably be a lot more time spent handling council communications than there is on the mailing list15:35
RST38hJaffa: Blogs are by their nature one-directional, even although you can have comments there15:35
RST38hJaffa: Well, I can make a proposal if you are willling to listen15:36
X-FadeI think discussions can be done on forum without problems, the only problem I see is the lack of a push factor.15:36
timsamoffdneary, keep in mind that some people want the mailing lists integrated with tmo.15:36
JaffaRST38h: I'm always willing to listen; doesn't mean I'll agree15:36
X-FadeHow to get the word out between the amazing amount of threads.15:36
timsamoffX-Fade: RSS?15:36
RST38hJaffa: Ok, let me try15:36
X-Fadetimsamoff: That requires one to subscribe?15:36
qole(I am a real forums guy, but the signal to noise ratio there can sometimes be pretty overwhelming... You'd have to figure out a way to prioritize Council posts)15:37
RST38h1. Create a special subforum for matters requiring attention from the council15:37
timsamoffX-Fade, there should be some expectations. ;)15:37
dnearyRST38h: Agreed. Blogs are uni-directional. IRC is ephemeral, not everyone wants to use mailing lists, and the forums are time consuming for prominent people and very low-cost for people with time to waste :)15:37
RST38h2. Create one discussion thread per subject, move threads from other subforums if they apply15:37
RST38h3. Let everyone speak ut in the thread (whoever is concerned), take polls, etc.15:37
dnearyEveryone hates something... I hate IRC15:38
-!- fiferboy [n=quassel@216.185.81.34] has joined #maemo-meeting15:38
dnearyfor qole it's mailing lists15:38
RST38h4. Council members should carefully MONITOR each thread and make decisions based on WHAT PEOPLE WANT in that thread15:38
-!- tekojo [n=tero@91.154.122.100] has joined #maemo-meeting15:38
timsamoffIRC should _not_ be a place for community-related discussion, imho.15:38
JaffaRST38h: There's a fundamental assumption in your proposal: that the council has matters which the community needs to bring to its attention. I'm not sure what those things *are*, since the _original_ intent of the council was for them to be perusing the various comm channels to find said things.15:38
RST38h5. If a council member thinks that he knows what people want, this council member should first of all refer to point #4 above.15:38
timsamoffI like the idea of having one place for community-related subjects, though.15:38
RST38hJaffaL I can give you a few examples15:39
timsamoffMaybe we can do an sjgadsby style agregate of monthly subject-matter?15:39
* Jaffa would love concrete examples of *what* a "council" matter is. I don't like dealing in the abstract here, because I'm not aware of what a council matter *is* (apart from this meta-meeting)15:39
-!- fiferboy [n=quassel@216.185.81.34] has left #maemo-meeting ["http://quassel-irc.org - Chat comfortably. Anywhere."]15:39
RST38hJaffa: a) various aspects of maemo.org infrastructure b) topics council should raise with Nokia15:39
GAN800The blog aggregates important stuff, and discussion takes place whereever it's most relevant.15:39
* qole likes timsamoff's idea15:39
RST38hJaffa: c) logistics for public events15:40
timsamoffOk, let me rein ua all back in for a minute...15:40
timsamoffShould the Council continue to use the "Council Blog"?15:40
GAN800RST38h, the problem is usually that it's just want the most vocal people with time to waste arguing want.15:40
RST38htimsamoff: I think yes15:40
ian_brasila council monthly roundup sounds ok to me - Council Report15:40
RST38hGAN: That is always the case with democracies15:40
qoletimsamoff: yes15:40
timsamoffian_brasil: Definitely doable if all of the info is easy to find.15:41
RST38hGAN: I think it is ok, as long as you listen to more than one of these vocals and apply common sense to what they propose15:41
timsamoffShould we have a Council subforum on tmo?15:41
ian_brasilmaybe that should be the job of the council?15:41
keesjanybody is free to call or mail me or the council. are we discussing about anything concrete or just about the idea?q15:41
qoleroundup on the blog15:41
JaffaRST38h: a) maemo.org already has a forum and a feedback mechanism; and isn't "owned" by the council.; b) perhaps - but that could turn into just a ranting thing ; c) each public event is organised by different people; the "Council" doesn't own - say - the summit, although an individual council member, qgil and other members of the community have been involved in planning it. Why is the council "forum" the best place for that?15:41
RST38hGAN: If you have got a poll with at least 50 participants though, it is a good enough basis to act upon15:41
Jaffatimsamoff: *What* goes into a council roundup vs. a community roundup?15:41
timsamoffWhat if the Council subforum was specifically for community-members to ake requests?15:42
RST38hJaffa: a) AFAIK, the main problem people have with council is that council does not act on their feedback, ACTING is what is important15:42
timsamoffAnd the Council Blog was for Council comm?15:42
RST38hJaffa: b) Ranting is fine, it happens all the time15:42
sjgadsbytimsamoff: A Council Brainstorm?15:42
timsamoffRST38h: Agreed.15:42
Jaffatimesamoff: Note that GAN800 has done a few community roundup blog posts; and it's always going to miss *something* someone considers important, but the editor of the roundup doesn't15:42
timsamoffsjgadsby: Sort of.15:42
RST38hJaffa: c) Then these people will be th eones listening to particular threads15:42
timsamoffLess moderated and organized.15:42
GAN800Jaffa, +115:42
Jaffatimsamoff: I'm sorry, I pretty much hate that idea. The council shouldn't be an excuse for members of the community to do something.15:43
qoleyes, community roundup is better than a council roundup. But focus first on council stuff15:43
X-FadeIs the task of the Council to gather ideas/rumblings in 'the community' and gather/organize those. Then see what can be done to better things?15:43
JaffaTake VDVsx - if such a forum existed, he could've said "council, please organise GSoC 2009". Instead, he took it on himself to do it.15:43
RST38hX-Fade: Yes15:43
timsamoffSo, Council continues to use Council Blog and tmo remains the same?15:43
X-FadeCan't things be organized around that idea then? :)15:43
* ian_brasil wonders why there is no meeting bot in maemo-meeting15:43
RST38hX-Fade: But only do things if community approves15:43
timsamoffWe have people who don't like that idea, but...15:43
timsamoffIf it's expected...?15:43
RST38hX-Fade: If you have got at least a few people with different backgrounds complaining about your changes, review them15:44
JaffaRST38h: Lots of ranting lowers the SNR15:44
X-FadeRST38h: I don't think the council should go back to the community to vote on each subject.15:44
JaffaRST38h: The point is the *council* haven't made any changes!15:44
RST38hJaffa: Man, there is nothing to be done about ranting15:44
X-FadeRST38h: You gave the council your vote, they now speak for you.15:44
timsamoffWe're running over time already so let's try to summarize a conclusion...15:45
RST38hJaffa: Once you start on the road of deciding what is a rant and what not, you almost always reach the let-them-all-shut-up-motherfuckers15:45
timsamoff(We'll be talking about council-to-community trust in a second.)15:45
timsamoffSo, we'll do a community roundup once a month.15:45
RST38hJaffa: So, a wise decision is to allow ranting and just live with it15:45
timsamoffIt's up to the council to find the items.15:45
RST38hX-Fade: Lots of people gave Bush their votes15:46
Jaffatimsamoff: Back to your agenda item, the Council Blog seems suitably high profile and "pushey": it's aggregated on pmo, it has its own RSS feed. There's already a discussion ongoing about making all midgard comments echoed in tmo, so that'd then appease the people who don't want to subscribe to the Council Blog, but still feel that they aren't being communicated to.15:46
RST38hX-Fade: This "you gave vote" thing unfortunately does not work as well as it is advertised to15:46
ian_brasiltimsamoff: can this be posted to the maemo community list as well?15:46
JaffaRST38h: And tmo is full of rants, why'd we want to introduce another sub-forum to focus them?!15:46
RST38hX-Fade: have to have some checks and balances15:46
timsamoffian_brasil: Sure, but pmo (Planet) has RSS.15:46
RST38hJaffa: You won't increase the total amount by introducing another forum15:47
qoleI think a community sub-forum is a good idea, too15:47
RST38hJaffa: May focus them there, which isn't a bad thing15:47
timsamoffWell, maemo.org subforum is supposed to be that.15:47
Jaffaqole: isn't that (almost) the maemo.org subforum?15:47
RST38hJaffa: Also, I think you are too quick dismissing valid comments as rants15:47
timsamoffMaybe that should be renamed to Community.15:47
Jaffatimsamoff: +115:47
RST38htimsamoff: +115:47
timsamoffOk. Rename maemo.org subforum to Community.15:48
qolerename maemo.org subforum to "community" subforum and link it to the community tab at maemo.org15:48
timsamoffCommunity ROundup once a month.15:48
RST38hJaffa: Now, that Darius guy was a mentally sick ranter indeed15:48
RST38hJaffa: But not everyone is like that15:48
timsamoffEveryone ignores Darius. ;)15:48
timsamoffQole: Maybe for another discussion. ;)15:48
JaffaRST38h: No, but if there's a particular place where people can "demand" (or "ask", depending on your mood) for the council to raise something with Nokia it could be full of ballot-stuffing, vocal, minority groups - rather than things that the council can suitably raise with the Nokia representatives.15:48
-!- lbt [n=david@78.32.229.233] has joined #maemo-meeting15:48
-!- JamieBen1ett [n=jamie@5ad153f1.bb.sky.com] has joined #maemo-meeting15:48
timsamoffJaffa: Discussed in Community, though?15:49
qoletimsamoff: the linking part? yes, but the renaming part is valid here15:49
timsamoffQole: Yes, that's what I meant.15:49
timsamoffOk... Next subject.15:49
timsamoff2. Representing the Maemo Community (maemo.org)15:49
RST38hJaffa: 1) it is called democracy  2) you as a councilman have freedom to filter the crap out and find the true picture before acting on it15:49
timsamoffThis has already been discussed a little.15:49
Jaffatimsamoff: Any thread we see anywhere which should be raised to Nokia's attention we do; I just don't want to define a concrete process by which people can make us beholden.15:49
RST38hJaffa: #2 is not that hard, most of that stuff is kinda obvious15:50
timsamoffJaffa: Right. Agreed.15:50
RST38hJaffa: No concrete process15:50
dnearybbias15:50
-!- etrunko [n=edulima@200.184.118.136] has quit [Connection timed out]15:50
* qole hunts around for his agenda... somewhere here...15:50
Jaffaqole: http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=2938415:50
RST38hJaffa: All you need to do is listen to what people say and maybe monthly publish asmall summary "this month people requested that and that and that and we think we can do some of these things (list attached)"15:51
Jaffatimsamoff: Can you define what a "community item" is and "into consideration" for what?15:51
timsamoffWhat if we developed a process for requests (another meeting).15:51
RST38htimsamoff: I think more processes is bad15:51
timsamoffCommunity Item, imho, is anything that pertains to us making a community-related decision.15:51
* Jaffa still doesn't understand what kind of "request" we're talking about here. Is this, basically, talking about - currently - a thread on -community?15:51
RST38htimsamoff: You should have JUST ENOUGH processes ot take care of things15:51
-!- toggles_w [n=irssi_to@tommywatson.com] has joined #maemo-meeting15:52
timsamoffRST38h: I mean, make it clear that people know what to do.15:52
RST38hJaffa: Example: "Return mobile theme to talk.maemo.org"15:52
timsamoffCurrently, there is a diconnect in that regard.15:52
RST38htimsamoff: Yea, but a stick post in community forum will suffice15:52
timsamoffRST38h: Exactly.15:52
timsamoffOk.15:52
JaffaRST38h: And the process for that is a bug in Bugzilla, isn't it?15:52
timsamoffWe just neefd to modify the Sticky for tyhe subforum.15:52
qolesjgadsby: were you talking about literally using "brainstorm" to do some of the community idea development?15:53
RST38hJaffa: If someone files a bug in bugzilla for that, it will be quickly rejected as "rant, nobody else wants this"15:53
RST38hJaffa: You know that15:53
timsamoffOk, moving on...15:53
JaffaRST38h: And that's where voting for bugs comes in.15:53
RST38hJaffa: If there is a forum thread a nd a vote, that would be a bit more difficult to reject15:53
timsamoffRST38h: +115:53
RST38hJaffa: Sorry, bugzilla just does not work for this kind of changes, voting or not15:53
Stskeepsdid you peeps see mer's sprintweb? http://guest:guest@trac.tspre.org:9010  ; a lot more functionality when not guest though15:53
RST38hJaffa: I would love it to work but it does not15:53
JaffaRST38h: The problem with your specific example is one of staffing.15:54
timsamoffsjgadsby brought up the Brainstorm.15:54
timsamoffWe could also use it for things like this, no?15:54
RST38hJaffa: Oh I can give you a bunch of these examples15:54
JaffaSo what if there was a thread on tmo (there was), so what if the council wanted it done? There was noone to do it!15:54
Jaffatimsamoff: I imagine the brainstorm will include *.maemo.org, as well as Maemo and Nokia devices.15:54
RST38hJaffa: As in "Request that Fremantle allows app programmers access the OpenGL ES APIs by the time the Fremantle device is released"15:55
timsamoffJaffa: Supposedly, we should have just told maemo.org staff to "do it," but I disagree.15:55
sjgadsbyI'm not pushing for Brainstorm for this use. It just sounds as though some folks want to push issues to the Council in a manner similar to the way Brainstorm works.15:55
RST38hJaffa: That is something that council should bring up with Nokia15:55
* qole likes the idea of having a "Community Brainstorm" ... when it goes live15:55
timsamoffQole: +115:55
Jaffatimsamoff: a) that's not how the sprint process works; b) AIUI, X-Fade - our webmaster - doesn't have all the skills; so it'd've been a 4 week wait and then a big task for him to get up to speed.15:55
timsamoffRight, I know./15:55
JaffaWhat happened was that an empassioned community member, with the skills, scratched his own itch.15:56
timsamoffWhich is why I disagree with the premise.15:56
JaffaWhich is the open source way.15:56
timsamoffA few major contributors dislike that idea, though. I don't want to appease every whim and fancy, but I don't want people to feel dienfranchised like that again.15:56
timsamoffdis15:56
Jaffatimsamoff: Agree, I disagree with the premise as well; it assumes the council has the power to enact changes, rather than put out a request to the community. However, if it was known that andrewfblack *wasn't* working on it, I'd've done a blog post asking for help - as I did with krisse's Maemo School idea.15:57
timsamoffYes, we are an OS community, but we have a Council now, who people think should "serve" them.15:57
RST38htimsamoff: If you have got a sizable sample of people asking for it, it is better to implement it15:57
JaffaRST38h: BUT THE COUNCIL CAN'T.15:57
timsamoffSo, who makes the decision?15:57
JaffaAnd who does the work?15:57
RST38hJaffa: Then ask Quim to allocate time of some paid Nokia employee to do it15:58
X-FadeProblem is that for a lot of tasks you have a lot of 'talkers' not so many 'do-ers' ;)15:58
timsamoffI guess we could have made a call for designers (in that case) to help.15:58
timsamoffAn official call, that is.15:58
JaffaRST38h: As I said, in your specific example, if we hadn't known andrewfblack was working on it; I'd've asked the community first.15:58
RST38hX-Fade: a few people offered to do work but weren't given access, if I remember correctly15:58
JaffaRST38h: Bollocks. That's excuses and FUD from people who didn't like the fact it wasn't there immediately.15:59
RST38hJaffaL Andrew's theme is actually far from perfect15:59
sjgadsbyRST38h: So, make requests to Andrew for improvements.15:59
RST38hJaffaL Well, if people are used to something and you take it away from them suddenly, do you expect them to just shut up? :)15:59
RST38hsjgadsbyL Actually, he says he can't shrink it well enough to fit a mobile device (still takes 100k+ to download)16:00
RST38hsjgadsby: but it is an offtopic here really16:00
timsamoffWhat is clear is that there are many of us who have a long history of FLOSS involvement and a lot of "users" who don't.16:00
timsamoffThe users who don't won't get this.16:00
JaffaThe council process here is clear: we knew someone in the community was skilled and going to do it. People moaned (in this specific case) that it wasn't there to start with - nothing can be done about that after the fact; if we didn't know someone was working on it we probably would've made a call for designers with VBulletin skills. Failing that, we'd've asked X-Fade if it was something he could do in the next spritn.16:00
dnearyI think what RST38h is getting at is that the council's agenda (that is, the things which the council should be bothering Nokia about) can be set by the community, rather than by the council itself16:00
dnearyMaybe I'm wrong though16:00
qoleTheoretically, the council CAN give firm direction to paid maemo.org people... So we do have _some_ executive power...16:00
timsamoffSo, as a Council, what do we do to "serve" them in the bests FLOS way?16:00
RST38hdneary: that too16:00
timsamoffRight.16:01
-!- mrmole [i=18dfbe47@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-4db1c6418be90113] has joined #maemo-meeting16:01
RST38hdneary: there are things that have to be brought up with nokia and then there is maemo.orgrelated stuff16:01
Jaffaqole: Yes, indeed. But in a proper agile process people get work done by wanting to do it (there are obviously exceptions) but it's a whole buy-in thing.16:01
timsamoffSo, how do we pick items that we will push?16:01
timsamoffJaff: But the majority of tmo won't get this.16:01
timsamoffSo, back to my "official call" stance.16:01
timsamoffMaybe we should just be more vocal about supporting items that are of importance to some people.16:02
Jaffadneary: To date, most of the council's work has been *within* the community - rather than community -> Nokia. Apart from examples like Maemo/Mozill weekend, summit kickoff and debmaster. But those were all situations where Nokia came to us.16:02
timsamoffUse Community subforum to make these calls./16:02
Jaffatimsamoff: Surely it's the blog again?16:02
RST38hJaffa: In real world (not one imagined by Bruce Perens) nobody works for free16:02
timsamoffOr, blog. Whatever. We just need to decide. ;)16:02
dnearyJaffa: So I *think* that's what RST38h is getting at16:02
RST38hJaffa: So, in the case of maemo.org, it is always someone like X-Fade who does job16:03
timsamoffOk.16:03
timsamoffJaffa moved us on to Representing Maemo SW (Nokia).16:03
Jaffatimsamoff: We've a precedent for calling for volunteers: http://maemo.org/community/council/maemo_school-tutorial_proposal_needs_volunteers/ - and various other blog posts16:03
-!- etrunko_ is now known as etrunko16:03
timsamoffI think we just need to do it...better.16:03
JaffaRST38h: Yes, and in the case of the mobile theme I think I've addressed how that'd've worked. But it DIDN'T NEED TO, as we knew andrewfblack was working on it16:03
qolein a FOSS community, a lot of people work for "free", ie no cash involved16:03
RST38hJaffa: Also, if you remember I tried doing some work for for maemo.org but ended up disregarded16:03
RST38hJaffa: So, I feel like it does not make sense to repeat that16:04
JaffaRST38h: You participated in a public, community-driven redesign process. It went in a different direction from *your* idea.16:04
JaffaThis is off-topic, I think.16:04
timsamoffWe may just have to reengage with this point later, then.16:04
RST38hJaffa: Andrew never worked on a mobile theme. He only started optimizing it for mobile use later, when it was found that it is the only existing theme that kinda fits on mobile devices16:04
RST38hJaffa: I think the whole discussion of t.m.o themes is offtopic16:05
-!- rkirti [n=rkirti@117.254.2.146] has joined #maemo-meeting16:05
RST38hItis just one example of a subject that can be discussed in the community forum16:05
JaffaWhich it was.16:05
timsamoffRST38h: Agreed. Let's do it there.16:05
JaffaSo I'm failing to see the suggested change.16:05
RST38htimsamoff: it is pretty much done now16:05
keesjto much TMO related stuff in this disc16:06
timsamoffJaffa: The issue is that people think we didn't support it, though.16:06
JaffaAnd a call for volunteers would've gone on the "one place for council communication", i.e. the council blog16:06
timsamoffOk.16:06
RST38htimsamoff: in fact, I would still very much prefer the ORIGINAL mobile themes resurrected but do not see any possibility in that16:06
Jaffatimsamoff: Yes, and attempts to correct that were viewed as part of some global conspiracy. Life's too short to please everyone; learn lessons about how to communicate to certain individuals/types of people & move on.16:06
timsamoffRST38h: I'm unfamiliar with it, so let's discuss later if you feel it is important.16:06
timsamoffJaffa; What we're trying to do here.16:07
timsamoffDoes anyone have anything to say about "Representing Maemo SW (Nokia) to the community"?16:07
qoleyes16:07
timsamoffQole: I knew you would. ;)16:07
qoleHow exactly are we supposed to do this?16:07
Jaffakeesj: I think that's why I disagreed with timsamoff's "most" in his email ;-) - a handful (i.e. around a dozen) people on tmo have been very vocal in their displeasure in a number of recent changes in the Maemo community. Which they feel the council hasn't communicated to them clearly enough.16:07
RST38hJaffa: The conspiracy stuff always surfaces when people feel like their chosen representatives are not listening, preferring to do stuff behind people's backs16:07
timsamoffQole: Good question.16:08
JaffaRST38h: And I'm not going to defend my actions again.16:08
* timsamoff wishes qgil was here.16:08
qoleSomeone from Nokia tells us something, and then we tell the community?16:08
Jaffaqole: Nokia can announce their own things.16:08
timsamoffUnless it's done "privately," I'd guess.16:08
RST38hqole: Nokia has Quim for that16:08
qoleWhy not tell the community directly? It's not like there's a torrent of information flowing from Nokia...16:08
RST38hYou do not need to bother16:08
timsamoffBut, we were envisioned to help qgil with that.16:09
timsamoffOriginally.16:09
JaffaBut if someone says something wrong, or stupid, it's our *duty* to correct it in an appropriate manner with superior information.16:09
qoleSo, then, what are we supposed to do here?16:09
RST38htimsamoff: You were envisioned to tell QUIM what COMMUNITY wants16:09
RST38hNot the vice versa16:09
timsamoffAnd, vice versa.16:09
qoleJaffa: whoa. NO WAY16:09
RST38hJaffa: No, it is not your duty, relax16:09
qolemy "duty" does not include correcting "stupid" people16:09
Jaffaqole: this is what an experienced community member does anyway (e.g. sjgadsby)16:10
timsamoffRST38h: Watch the council video from last year again./16:10
qoleI think some of the problem is that some people consider it their duty and their pleasure to correct others.16:10
RST38hJaffa: I mean, you can do this, but there is no reason to get mad over all these people saying stupid things16:10
Jaffaqole: It's a communication role; this means ensuring the most accurate information is available. I didn't say correct *everyone*, and not every thread needs to be dragged off-topic.16:10
timsamoffI think there is a philosophical difference between "helping" and "correcting."16:10
qoleI confess I like to correct others too...16:10
qole"I can't come to bed! Someone is wrong on the Internet!"16:11
Jaffatimsamoff: Arguably, "correcting" the main thrust of a thread (and I don't mean on everything) is "helping" the community.16:11
timsamoffAnd, there should be some balance: Not every "stupid" sentence needs to be corrected.16:11
* Jaffa doesn't see where he's disagreeing.16:11
timsamoffOk.16:11
timsamoffJust different choiuce of words. ;)16:12
timsamoffAll right... So, Nokia takes care of their own announcements?16:12
RST38hJaffa: even correcting the main thrust of a thread may not be such a good idea sometimes16:12
RST38hSome threads are better ignored really16:12
keesjabout "Representing Maemo SW (Nokia) to the community". This is a nice topic , specially related to opengl, internal bug report etc, this is all "developer" level information. The best thing for that is to group request and make a statement towards Nokia. Nokia can then EXPLAIN to the council what is doable and/or why they are not doing it and the community can be "released" from a specific question . that is What I think is "16:12
dnearyqole: Let me go into my memory banks for that "representing Maemo SW to the community" bit16:12
RST38hkeesj +116:13
dnearyIIRC, the general workflow is:16:13
qoledneary: thanks16:13
timsamoffKeesJ: Thanks. +116:13
Jaffakeesj: good point16:13
dnearyNokia wanted to have a group that represented the maemo.org community16:13
JaffaIncorrect.16:13
Jaffa;-)16:13
dnearyThis group would complain about stuff that needed complaining about16:13
timsamoff(m.occ was Jaffa's idea.)16:13
dnearyOrganise the community to do stuff that was important to them, but not a Nokia priority16:13
JaffaWe convinced them they should have a group. I came up with the idea of a council in a bar, on a campsite, in France and wrote the first outline on my N81016:13
* qole is very good at complaining 16:14
dnearyAnd... after meeting with & complaining about stuff, bring the conclusions of those discussions back to the community16:14
dnearyIt's not about announcements, so much as being a conduit between community & company16:14
* GAN800 doesn't get why everybody thinks the council was Nokia's idea.16:14
sjgadsbyWell said, dneary.16:14
timsamoffdneary: Ok. +1 on that too.16:14
JaffaMy primary motivation was the number of times qgil would post to maemo-* saying "we could do this, what does the community think?" and get a hundred replies.16:14
Jaffadneary: Agree on the last point.16:14
timsamoffSo, Council will make announcements based on community-related items that were brought to Nokia.16:15
timsamoffBut, not on things Nokia brings to Council.16:15
qoleWow, I didn't know that Jaffa is to blame for the Council... ;-)16:15
timsamoff:-/16:15
dnearyJaffa: An N810?16:15
Jaffatimsamoff: Of course, Nokia & Reggie brought tmo to the council - and yet that's been the most disruptive change on tmo16:15
timsamoffThat's actually the reason why I piut beer on him every chance I get.16:15
timsamoffJaffa: Yeah, but it is community-related. Not Maemo-related.16:16
Jaffadneary: Hmm, maybe not. I forget.16:16
dnearyI remember writing *my* outline for the council on a 770, in a field, in Ireland. Campsites were too good for us in those days16:16
dnearyYou youngsters, have it easy16:16
Jaffapfft16:16
qoleJaffa: have things changed a lot in your area of concern since the council's inception?16:16
dneary(Cornholio has been replaced by Michael Palin)16:16
timsamoffOk. Any objections to changing the Council wiki to Quim's suggestions?16:16
timsamoffhttp://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=2938416:17
Jaffatimsamoff: Indeed, but if we're making announcements based on community-related items that were brought to Nokia; we already want to expand it to "and other community stuff"16:17
timsamoff#416:17
Jaffaqole: Hmm, interesting question.16:17
timsamoffJaffa & Qole: Another discussion?16:17
qoletimsamoff: if you say so ;-)16:18
timsamoffLet's talk about that on on the Community subforum, eh?16:18
JaffaI'm fundamentally happy that the communication between Nokia and the Council have helped streamline processes like the summit etc. And that we've helped ensure - as "community elders" - that one part of the community knows what's going on elsewhere. However, the rise of tmo as _the_ home for the community, rather than *mo is new.16:18
timsamoffBut, not necessarily bad.16:18
timsamoffWe just need to adjust.16:18
GAN800To a dozen people?16:19
Jaffatimsamoff: qgil's proposal is fine with me - it's not far from reality, so codifying it seems sensible.16:19
timsamoffA very vocal dozen. ;)16:19
timsamoffJaffa: Thanks.16:19
GAN800It's the rise of a handful of incredibly vocal, and rather self-centered folks.16:19
timsamoffBut, they cause a lot of other non-vocal people to think something's wrong. Unfortunately.16:20
JaffaI'm still not sure how many micro-updates there'll be, I suppose it'd be general things like "maemo.org newstyle about to go live!" - which doesn't seem like it should be limited to the council16:20
qolewhat exactly was Quim's wiki suggestion?16:20
qoleI don't see much about the wiki there16:20
timsamoff#4 on the agenda.16:20
Jaffaqole: middle of the first post at http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=2938416:20
timsamoffIt needs to be hone, but... I liek the idea.16:20
timsamoffhoned16:20
qoleoh, we put Quim's text on the wiki?16:21
timsamoffA edited version... Instead of what's there right now.16:21
qolegotcha sorry16:21
timsamoffAnd, with the advent of a Community subforum, some of the wording needs to be changed.16:22
timsamoffLast point...16:22
timsamoff5. Regular Maemo Community town hall meetings?16:22
timsamoffShould we have these?16:22
JaffaThe idea is fine, but I don't like the thought of the extra admin overhead16:22
timsamoffNot every council member has to be present every time.16:22
timsamoffWe could have a condition where so many people need to be present for the meeting to commence, etc.16:23
JaffaIf it really was a regular, recurring point in space-time, that'd be easier.16:23
qoleCan I attend a sprint meeting or a town hall meeting each month?16:23
Jaffatimsamoff: Ooh, a quorate - like that.16:23
qolerather than both?16:23
Jaffaqole: you can attend anything you like - depends where you want to be heard ;-)16:23
timsamoffQole: Community Townhall would be about community.16:23
timsamoffHow often, then?16:24
qoleI don't seem to have problems being heard.16:24
sjgadsbyPerhaps more like regularly scheduled, "open office hours" than a meeting?16:24
timsamoffsjgadsby: I like that, but it wouldn't be "often."16:24
Jaffasjgadsby: "office hours" are generally longer than a meeting, though; or were you imaginging something still an hour long?16:24
sjgadsbyMore like an hour long.16:24
-!- mrmole [i=18dfbe47@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-4db1c6418be90113] has quit ["http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"]16:25
qolesjgadsby: hey I like that16:25
timsamoffIf we do it once a month, each Council member could alternate/.16:25
sjgadsbyI work in a university, so I'm used to the concept of regular drop in times.16:25
qoleBut we could even have more than one hour... I could take the West Coast of America... 16:25
timsamoffThat's not a big expectation for future Council members.16:25
timsamoffQole: Good idea.16:25
timsamoffTwo hours / month: Americas and Europe.16:26
timsamoffAlternate Council attendees.16:26
qoleat 10pm my time most of the other councillors are in bed :-)16:26
JaffaProposal: First and third Saturdays in a month, 1930UTC - one hour long. Fixed agenda every time: "1) List of items for discussion [5 mins]; 2) Discussion of items chosen by meeting chair [50 mins]; 3) AOB [5 mins]". At least two council members to attend and three non-council members for the meeting to occur.16:26
timsamoffJaffa: I like that, but I also like Qole's idea.16:27
timsamoffLet's pick an Americas time and a Europe time.16:27
JaffaThat's more of a sub-community townhall, then ;-)16:27
timsamoffWell, we can discuss that later, then, so long as we all like the townhall idea.16:28
Jaffa1930UTC is still 1130PST or 1230PDT. Nokia employees aren't required, so later isn't a problem like with the sprint meetings.16:28
* RST38h feels that while he was working, the original open forum idea has been supplanted by ANOTHER council meeting plan16:29
timsamoffJaffa: Let's discuss times on maemo-community. And then take it to tmo.16:29
JaffaI like it as long as: * no more than two a month; * minimum number of attendees required16:29
timsamoffRST38h: You don't like the idea?16:29
RST38hNo.16:29
qolewell, if you are having formal meetings, that isn't what I was talking about, I was talking about sjgadsby's "office hours" idea16:29
RST38hI do not feel like it solves anything, unfortunately16:29
timsamoffRST38h: Ellaborate.16:29
X-FadeTo solve a something, you need to see what the problem is first.16:30
timsamoff(We'll give the meeting another 10 minutyes or so.)16:30
Jaffaqole: office hours still need some structure, I'd say. Or perhaps not. Just a set time when people'll be in a particular channel for a chat.16:30
RST38hI think that the "office hours" should boil down to monitoring appropriate t.m.o forum ("Community") and gathering/implementing ideas supported by a sizable majority16:30
X-FadeIs the problem that community ideas/issues are not coming to the council?16:30
qoleJaffa: that's what I was agreeing to. We take turns on some specific day to promise to be online and field questions16:30
timsamoffX-Fade: We're having trouble figuring out what are important and who will solve.16:31
RST38hX-Fade: The problem has been the people (t.m.o posters at least) feeling that the council does not represent them16:31
JaffaX-Fade: I think the problem is that the community don't think the council is listening; even when we are. Sometimes we take it under advisement, sometimes it's outside our sphere of control.16:31
X-FadeOr that people don't get feedback or progress report.16:31
JaffaBut having an office hours would give people a direct answer as to the best way of progressing that issue.16:31
timsamoffI don't think anyone wants progress reports.16:31
timsamoffPeople want their requests acted on.16:31
timsamoffAnd, we can't act on every one.16:32
JaffaWe can't act on many.16:32
X-Fadetimsamoff: People won't know the status oof their problem, if you don't report ;)16:32
RST38hX-Fade: Any public suggestions from t.m.o community, even supported by multiple t.m.o members, even backed up by a vote are rejected by various council members as fringe, frivolous, or rants16:32
timsamoffWe have tried to point to Sprint summaries and no one likes it.16:32
JaffaX-Fade: people aren't sure what their problems are. A number of times I've asked for concrete examples on tmo, and been accused of trying to distract the issue or something16:32
RST38hX-Fade: [not to say that none of them are rants of course :)]16:32
qoleI'd want some way to post the logs of "office hours" in an archive somewhere16:32
Jaffaqole: agreed16:32
JaffaRST38h: That's demonstrably bollocks.16:33
RST38hX-Fade: Having "office hours" will not fix the problem, making it more entrenched instead16:33
timsamoff+116:33
X-FadeRST38h: The problem is that a lot of people type ideas sounding like a rant. There also needs to be a bit of education on how to communicate sometimes.16:33
-!- fr01b [n=fr@212.30.2.18] has joined #maemo-meeting16:33
RST38hBollocks or not, lots of people think it is true, and in this case public perception is all that matters16:33
JaffaRST38h: One or two *demands* from some vocal members of the tmo community have devolved into flamewars when the council tries to explain why a situation is the way a situation is; and how it can be progressed.16:33
timsamoffEducation won't work: People think it's constrictive.16:33
timsamoffIn a forum setting, mods need to be kind and forgiving.16:34
timsamoffSo...16:34
RST38hX-Fade: Can't do much about it. Most high schools teach you how to put sentences together, few teach how to convey your point effectively16:34
* X-Fade thinks we should just add a rate limit on each and every communication stream.16:34
timsamoffWe just need a place to channel all of the noise.16:34
timsamoffA way to hear and represent it16:34
RST38hX-Fade: So, have to deal with whatever people we have got :)16:34
* qole looks at his watch16:34
timsamoffAnd a method of distributing the actions.16:34
X-FadeRST38h: My mother always taught me to ask things nicely ;)16:34
RST38hJaffa: In many cases, a trivial action by the council would diffuse the situation, no need to perpetually correct people telling them why they are wrong. Humans absolutely hate that16:35
timsamoffOk, let's approach the townhall meeting on the Community subfrum, then.16:35
timsamoffIt's time to bring us to a close.16:35
RST38hX-Fade; Even asking nicely does not produce much effect in this particular case16:35
timsamoffI'll try to summarize a list of action-items and post it to Community.16:35
qoleagreed that the townhall idea is too big to decide here16:35
-!- thopiekar [n=thopieka@p57A15127.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #maemo-meeting16:36
timsamoffThen, we will use Community as a converdsation unless someone requests a meeting.16:36
RST38hX-Fade: You can, for example, refer to my bugzilla report on those dreadful promotional boxes in maemo.org downloads16:36
X-FadeIf you are handlin each request in a forum, then people can comment on it 24hrs a day. The townhall meeting is only an hour.16:36
X-FadeMaybe this townhall meeting can be used to prioritize issues?16:36
RST38hX-Fade: you do not have to monitor forums hourly16:36
timsamoffX-Fade: I agree, but some community-members won't -- as you can see. ;)16:37
RST38hX-Fade: A quick browse once in a few days, trying to get a handle on what people want will suffice16:37
JaffaX-Fade: which could lead to long-running, drifting threads where the council conclusion "yes, we'll take this on", "good idea, feel free to take this on" or "hmm, this doesnt' quite fit with the existing work in areas X, Y & Z" could get lost in the noise.16:37
X-FadeJaffa: Well, you will get 500 ideas. You _have_ to prioritize anyway.16:37
RST38hJaffa: This stuff you can communicate in a weekly summary post, with comments disabled16:37
timsamoffThis meeting is officially over. But, if people want to continue talking, that's fine.16:37
Jaffatimsamoff: As keesj may point out - discussing it on tmo>Community is implicitly deprecating maemo-community.16:38
* qole goes and gets breakfast16:38
RST38hJaffa: I thought the plan was to merge these?16:38
timsamoffWe need to get maemo-community integrated!16:38
* Stskeeps passes qole the coffee16:38
timsamoffAnd, I'll link to the conversation on maemo-community for now.16:38
JaffaAn exact corrolary to a circumstance which was discussed on tmo about how the changes to tmo were discussed on the mailing lists and not in the forum16:38
* sjgadsby thought someone was bringing doughnuts.16:38
timsamoffMmm. Donuts.16:39
qoletimsamoff: +1 on mailing-list & tmo / community integration16:39
JaffaRST38h: It's a plan, but a) it's not happened yet, so which should be the priority pre-merge?; b) I've not seen how far it is from being actually workable to both sides16:39
RST38hJaffa: I think it depends on the userbase size of t.m.o vs the mailing list16:40
RST38hJaffa: if t.m.o has got more members, go with t.m.o16:40
JaffaRST38h: true16:40
RST38hOtherwise go with the list16:40
-!- Andy80 [n=andy80@host128-205-dynamic.33-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #maemo-meeting16:40
RST38hSo far t.m.o does look more lively to me16:40
timsamoffOnce the integration occurs, I feel that the mailing list users may be overwhelmed. ;)16:40
JaffaBut actually, tmo members who'd read a Community sub-forum16:40
RST38htimsamoff: And will blame council for Conspiracy! :)16:40
Jaffatimsamoff: s/overwhelmed/severely pissed off/16:40
Andy80damn UTC format :\ maybe too late...16:41
timsamoffYeah, sorry, Andy80.16:41
RST38hJaffa: tmo users are shitt^H^H^Hreading ALL forums16:41
Andy80I'm sorry too :(16:41
timsamoffAndy80: We'll be posting an archive as well as meeting notes.16:41
RST38hJaffa: Remember, nobody is using that top level Forums page, everybody uses New Posts16:41
JaffaRST38h: Some of us are, not all of them.16:41
Andy80cool, I'll read them then :)16:41
RST38hJaffa: Where all forums are mixed anyway16:41
JaffaRST38h: *Please* stop using absolutes16:41
JaffaEspecially when you have no facts.16:42
RST38hJaffa: You should go back and read how many people wanted the New Posts page back then :)16:42
JaffaThe New Posts page never went anywhere. I've used it since October 2005 contiguously16:42
JaffaAnd lots of posts =!=> "everybody"16:42
JaffaWhich is the absolute I'm objecting to.16:43
timsamoffOk, so now we have a discussion between two community members that should probably be occuring on tmo. Come on guys... Let's call it a day here, ok? :)16:43
RST38hJaffa: Before, new posts were shown at the top page16:43
RST38hJaffa: so everyone is used to that layout16:43
X-FadeOne thing I have a problem with is the amount of information we get thrown towards us. If I read it all, it takes a few hours a day to read. And then what?16:43
RST38hX-Fade: Just need to browse16:43
X-FadeI'm informed about the issues, but now there is a few less hours in the day.16:44
RST38hX-Fade: Skip over flames and offtopics16:44
JaffaRST38h: FFS, "everyone" again. I didn't use the front page, I bookmarked http://talk.maemo.org/search.php?do=getnew - so "everybody" is demonstrably false and just plain wrong.16:44
X-FadeRST38h: Hard to do in a 1000 post thread.16:44
timsamoffRST38h: Some people really don't have the time to do that.16:44
RST38hX-Fade: We have just got ONE :)16:44
JaffaRST38h: That's difficult enough for the council to do, and it's our "job". I don't want to waste X-Fade's time by him having to wade through 3 pages of new posts every day16:44
timsamoffJaffa: Agreed.16:45
RST38htimsamoff: then don't read the longest ones and honestly say you do not have opinion on them, either way16:45
X-FadeYeah, but you know that there are multiple threads/sub forums to keep an eye on.16:45
RST38hCome on folks, most of you ARE following these threads anyway, "correcting" people16:45
RST38hSo do no say you have no time monitoring them :)16:45
timsamoffX-Fade & dneary: I think you might just need to rely on Council to feed you maemo.org specifics... If you'd like.16:45
JaffaRST38h: X-Fade, dneary, andre and jeremiah aren't.16:45
Jaffatimsamoff: +116:45
X-Fadetimsamoff: I think that is not a bad idea.16:45
keesjto be honest I am really not waiting for forum/tweet like discutions on the mailing list16:46
RST38hJaffa: Ok, they may get a summary every now and then from you 16:46
JaffaMaybe *one* sub-forum, if appropriate. But I'm not sure we've got the granularity necessary (and aren't suggesting we get it)16:46
andre___I normally don't subscibe to threads, just reading "what's new" in talk.maemo.org16:46
dnearytimsamoff: My only expectation from the council was to help set my agenda16:46
X-FadeThe problem with forums is that they tend to go off-topic a lot faster than mailinglist discussions.16:46
timsamoffkeesj: It may come to that... But, you can unsubscribe to maemo-community and just visit the forums once in a while.16:46
dnearyAnd take me to task if I wasn't meeting expectations every once in a while16:46
RST38hkeesj: Forums are really not that bad16:46
Jaffajeremiah is pretty much the only person who should be actively looking over certain parts of tmo looking for people to help16:46
dnearyAnd allow me to say "but I just have no idea how to get this done" and have that be an acceptable answer16:46
RST38hkeesj: Lots of noise of course, but ideas as well16:47
dneary& help figure out how to do what I can't figure out16:47
RST38hdneary: Yea, but that is where people should suggest how this or that can be done16:47
dnearyRST38h: I could literally spend all day every day in the forums.16:47
JaffaActually, dneary too I suppose with some of the discussions about docmaster role16:47
RST38hdneary: but you do no t have to really16:47
dnearyI wouldn't mind, it's an easy living, but not a very productive one16:47
RST38hdneary: this is the extreme case where you real the whole threads and comment on them actively16:48
dnearyRST38h: It seems like there are threads like that every day at the moment16:48
RST38hdneary: If you just browse through 3-5 threads on wendesday to get an overall feeling of what people are saying, that will take you maybe 40 minutes16:48
RST38hdneary: not really. most stuff right now isn't very interesting16:49
timsamoffWell, anyway... We do need to figure out what the workflow is/will be.16:49
JaffaRST38h: There's an overhead in checking whether a thread is interesting16:49
X-FadeRST38h: But how would you know that, without reading ;)16:49
timsamoffIf it requires m.o staff to read forums, then that's that. If not, we can do it another way.16:49
RST38hdneary: the N900 thread calmed down (and did not require council attention anyway), no new software, not much to do16:49
RST38hX-Fade: you browse16:49
Stskeepsheh, n900 calmed down because people got tangible info16:49
timsamoffUnfortunately, we don't have many other community members offering opinions right now.16:49
RST38hX-Fade: scroll down checking a sentence here and there16:50
Jaffatimsamoff: +116:50
RST38hyes, where is our penguinbait? :)16:50
timsamoffOk, everyone... Thanks for coming. Let's adjourn already! :)16:51

Generated by irclog2html.py 2.7 by Marius Gedminas - find it at mg.pov.lt!