Aw: Re: Re: the hell of Maemo repos
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Aw: Re: Re: the hell of Maemo repos
Tim Teulings 11/21/08 22:49:05Hello!
> ...Which is clearly a bad idea. The details obviously *should* be
> worked out and a timeline chosen so that the switchover can happen
> smoothly. It can be cooperative rather than dictatorial, but that's
> irrelevant to the end-user.
But Nokia did not force me to immediately shutdown the repository.
I would have been able to get my software first into extras and then shutdown my own rep. I fact I did it this way and the rep owner of that kismet rep could have this, too. Why he did it not this way I do not known - but that is not Nokias fault. Please wait on the rep owner to explain (if he likes to). And since I'm that that rep owner is not Quim you can neither blaim him or Nokia. If this was a fault of someone in this case it was the fault of parts of the community. This is getting me angry. If you want kismet do your port and put it into extras yourself. There was not "includes kismet" on your product package I'm sure of.
Please explain in simple words what you expect of Nokia in this case.
Gruß...
    Tim
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Re: Re: Re: the hell of Maemo repos
Sebastian Maemo 11/21/08 23:08:442008/11/21 Tim Teulings <rael@edge.ping.de>
>
> If you want kismet do your port and put it into extras yourself. There was
> not "includes kismet" on your product package I'm sure of.
Hi Tim, I think you're going the wrong way...
Salut,
Sebas.
PD: Should Nokia place an advertising in their Tablets' casing like:
"Do not use unless you're an experienced programmer"
or...
"Do not expect anything but browsing the Web (without any JAVA experience,
don't forget that point) unless you're an experienced programmer"
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Re: Re: Re: the hell of Maemo repos
Mark Haury 11/22/08 00:23:17On Fri, Nov 21, 2008 at 1:49 PM, Tim Teulings <rael@edge.ping.de> wrote:
> Hello!
>
>> ...Which is clearly a bad idea. The details obviously *should* be
>> worked out and a timeline chosen so that the switchover can happen
>> smoothly. It can be cooperative rather than dictatorial, but that's
>> irrelevant to the end-user.
>
> But Nokia did not force me to immediately shutdown the repository.
>
Which is irrelevant. What's relevant is that they did *not* tell you
"don't shut down your repository until you *know* the maemo one is
working."
>
> I would have been able to get my software first into extras and then shutdown my own rep. I fact I did it this way and the rep owner of that kismet rep could have this, too.
Maybe his experience was different than yours. Maybe something
happened to him before he could complete the process. Regardless,
obviously something didn't work the way it should have, but assuming
that it was his fault is typical of the mindset around here. Oh, no,
it couldn't possibly have been the fault of Nokia or maemo... It's
always everybody else's fault...
It's apparently perfectly acceptable to jump to conclusions as long as
Nokia and maemo are not implicated...
> Why he did it not this way I do not known - but that is not Nokias fault. Please wait on the rep owner to explain (if he likes to). And since I'm that that rep owner is not Quim you can neither blaim him or Nokia. If this was a fault of someone in this case it was the fault of parts of the community. This is getting me angry. If you want kismet do your port and put it into extras yourself. There was not "includes kismet" on your product package I'm sure of.
>
> Please explain in simple words what you expect of Nokia in this case.
>
> Gruß...
> Tim
What I expect from Nokia (of which maemo is an extension, like it or
not) is to provide some basic guidelines when asking people to
transfer their stuff to the maemo repositories. Even better, a
step-by-step process guide. Something like:
1) Prepare your package for distribution
2) Upload it to the maemo repository
3) Test the repository to make sure it's working
4) After everything else is in place, replace your personal repository
with a link to the new one
What may seem obvious to one person isn't always obvious to another,
especially if they are distracted by other pressures. It's always
better to give the expert information they can ignore than to *not*
give the newbie the information they need. Even an expert can have an
off day and forget something that is normally routine.
As for the other stuff, for starters, they would more correctly be
called "Web Tablets" or "Web & Email Tablets", not "Internet Tablets",
because the only thing they can do out of the box is surf the Web and
if you're lucky do email. They can't even come close to doing all the
things that are possible on the Internet, even *with* all the
aftermarket apps available. So yeah, calling them "Internet Tablets"
is in and of itself false advertising. It should also state clearly in
large letters on the package that they do *not* and never will have
any kind of PIM functionality OEM. The "Contacts" app is really a very
limited phonebook no better than what your GSM SIM card can store and
not by any stretch of the imagination a true contacts app. It's
irrelevant if it uses the Evolution database, since you can't access
any of that functionality. Heck, they can't even really utilize the
camera out of the box. It's a no-brainer that they should come with a
basic video & still capture app. Even the cheapest camera phones can
do that, and they don't have a fraction of the power or storage.
Speaking of which, even my very basic non-camera-phone's built-in
"Phonebook" app can store full street address and birthday in addition
to four phone numbers for each contact, and has a very functional and
effective calendar to boot. In fact, I rely on my phone for
appointments, since the tablet isn't capable and not always on my
person. Why lug it everywhere to keep it handy when it can't do any of
those things and is much larger? In contrast, I was never without my
Visor before I got the Tablet, and I still go back to it when I need
an address.
That's just for starters.
Mark
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Default PIM software (was: Re: the hell of Maemo repos
Peter Flynn 11/22/08 01:10:06Mark wrote:
> As for the other stuff, for starters, they would more correctly be
> called "Web Tablets" or "Web & Email Tablets", not "Internet
> Tablets", because the only thing they can do out of the box is surf
> the Web and if you're lucky do email.
This is marketing, although as the mass of the population wouldn't know
a "tablet" from a hole in the ground, I think it was a poor choice.
> They can't even come close to doing all the things that are possible
> on the Internet, even *with* all the aftermarket apps available. So
> yeah, calling them "Internet Tablets" is in and of itself false
> advertising.
Hmmm. Mine does very nearly everything I want to do, on and off the
Internet, but my requirements were for a lightweight substitute for a
laptop (bearing in mind I'm a user, not a developer).
> It should also state clearly in large letters on the package that
> they do *not* and never will have any kind of PIM functionality OEM.
> The "Contacts" app is really a very limited phonebook no better than
> what your GSM SIM card can store and not by any stretch of the
> imagination a true contacts app.
This is nearly the biggest problem. I have no idea who Nokia consulted
before choosing the default PIM apps, but it clearly wasn't anyone who
had ever used them. It has all the hallmarks of a poorly-informed
Marketing decision just to slam in anything that called itself
"Contacts" or "Calendar" in an effort to make some shipping deadline.
Almost the biggest mistake was in not providing a path for replacing
those apps with ones that worked and interworked (like GPE...well,
nearly). I've installed the GPE apps but having them all interwork would
be nice.
> It's irrelevant if it uses the Evolution database, since you can't
> access any of that functionality. Heck, they can't even really
> utilize the camera out of the box.
That was the biggest mistake, IMHO. I've never used it for the simple
reason that there is no software (that I have found) to do anything
meaningful with it, and the software provided is a chat system to which
no-one seems to be signed up.
But as I said, I expect some mistakes in new hardware and software. I
expect Marketing to go down blind alleys. I expect companies to have
problems handling FOSS. What's missing from the forums is an indication
that the manufacturer is paying attention to the most serious errors and
is planning to correct them. It's perfectly possible that this *is*
happening, or that I'm looking in the wrong place, but I haven't seen it
yet.
///Peter
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Re: Default PIM software (was: Re: the hell of Maemo repos
Mark Haury 11/22/08 02:10:36On Fri, Nov 21, 2008 at 4:10 PM, Peter Flynn <peter@silmaril.ie> wrote:
> Mark wrote:
>> Heck, they can't even really
>> utilize the camera out of the box.
>
> That was the biggest mistake, IMHO. I've never used it for the simple
> reason that there is no software (that I have found) to do anything
> meaningful with it, and the software provided is a chat system to which
> no-one seems to be signed up.
>
Stills:
"Camera" (I can't find any information or a Web page for this, but I
have it installed)
"Gps-Camera" http://maemo.org/downloads/product/OS2008/gps-camera/
"Knips" (doesn't run for me) http://maemo.org/downloads/product/OS2008/knips/
Video:
"Videocamera" https://garage.maemo.org/projects/camera/
These are very basic and don't include any kind of exposure control
(maybe a hardware limitationhaury), but do the job.
Many use the terms "Internet" and "Web" interchangeably, but they're
not. The Web consists of a certain number of HTML servers that are
connected to the Internet. There are *lots* of other types of servers,
clients and machines connected to the Internet, and the tablets simply
don't have the software (and in a few cases the hardware) to connect
to them. There are also other software-related activities that haven't
been (and probably won't be) ported for the tablets. There's a whole
lot more to the Internet than just Web pages and email.
Mark
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Re: Default PIM software
Peter Flynn 11/22/08 17:38:44Mark wrote:
> On Fri, Nov 21, 2008 at 4:10 PM, Peter Flynn <peter@silmaril.ie> wrote:
>> That was the biggest mistake, IMHO. I've never used it for the simple
>> reason that there is no software (that I have found) to do anything
>> meaningful with it, and the software provided is a chat system to which
>> no-one seems to be signed up.
>
> Stills:
[snip]
> Video:
[clip]
I did say "meaningful". I can take stills and video with my cellphone.
When you pop out the camera, it pops up some chat program to which
nobody seems to be connected. *That* is "not meaningful".
> Many use the terms "Internet" and "Web" interchangeably, but they're
> not.
I'm well aware of the distinction. I'm not entirely clear why you felt
it necessary, but thank you for the tutorial.
The problem is that Nokia saw fit so market a device with a camera and
no network applications to make use of it apart from the default dodo.
"Leaving it to the community" is all very well, but it simply hasn't
worked in the case of the camera. (I'm actually uninterested in using
the camera anyway; this was an example).
///Peter
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Re: Default PIM software
Mark Haury 11/22/08 19:12:00On 11/22/08, Peter Flynn <peter@silmaril.ie> wrote:
> Mark wrote:
> > On Fri, Nov 21, 2008 at 4:10 PM, Peter Flynn <peter@silmaril.ie> wrote:
> >> That was the biggest mistake, IMHO. I've never used it for the simple
> >> reason that there is no software (that I have found) to do anything
> >> meaningful with it, and the software provided is a chat system to which
> >> no-one seems to be signed up.
> >
> > Stills:
> [snip]
> > Video:
> [clip]
>
> I did say "meaningful". I can take stills and video with my cellphone.
> When you pop out the camera, it pops up some chat program to which
> nobody seems to be connected. *That* is "not meaningful".
You're right. It is possible to change a setting so the default
useless app doesn't open when you pop out the camera, but that doesn't
change the fact that the tablet doesn't come with anything useful.
That setting doesn't seem to stick too well. Skype and Gizmo are only
a couple of clicks away, but I don't know anybody who uses them,
either.
Since my cellphone doesn't have a camera, the apps I mentioned are
more useful to me than to you. I have to point out, though, that the
resulting files are more easily portable on the tablet than on a
phone, and storage isn't an issue on the tablet.
>
> > Many use the terms "Internet" and "Web" interchangeably, but they're
> > not.
>
> I'm well aware of the distinction. I'm not entirely clear why you felt
> it necessary, but thank you for the tutorial.
>
> The problem is that Nokia saw fit so market a device with a camera and
> no network applications to make use of it apart from the default dodo.
>
This is indeed the problem: it is marketed as to its potential, but
sold with little besides Web browsing. That's the point of my
description of the significant difference between "Web" and Internet".
> "Leaving it to the community" is all very well, but it simply hasn't
> worked in the case of the camera. (I'm actually uninterested in using
> the camera anyway; this was an example).
>
> ///Peter
Exactly, although the camera may not be the most compelling example. I
would start with a hobbled Mozilla-based browser that doesn't support
extensions. Even its strongest, most hyped feature is severely
limited.
Mark
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Re: Default PIM software
Peter Flynn 11/23/08 00:19:30Mark wrote:
> You're right. It is possible to change a setting so the default
> useless app doesn't open when you pop out the camera, but that doesn't
> change the fact that the tablet doesn't come with anything useful.
> That setting doesn't seem to stick too well. Skype and Gizmo are only
> a couple of clicks away, but I don't know anybody who uses them,
> either.
Is there anything available in Diablo or OS2008 that uses the camera
successfully? (Just curious)
> Since my cellphone doesn't have a camera, the apps I mentioned are
> more useful to me than to you.
Good point. I shouldn't have made that assumption.
> I have to point out, though, that the
> resulting files are more easily portable on the tablet than on a
> phone, and storage isn't an issue on the tablet.
Very true, although I was surprised and pleased to see that a .3gp video
from my phone plays perfectly on the N800.
> This is indeed the problem: it is marketed as to its potential, but
> sold with little besides Web browsing. That's the point of my
> description of the significant difference between "Web" and Internet".
Ah. Yes. They got it badly wrong, which is surprising for Nokia. The
market isn't suits who browse the web (and even if it was, all the more
reason why they got the default PIM apps to disastrously wrong). They're
all crackberry addicts or welded at the hip to Microsoft Mobile. The
market is the geek^H^H^H^Htechnically-aware professional who wants more
than a corporate-issue PDA.
If Nokia wants to know what the market is and what it wants, they merely
have to ask nicely, not have Marketing conduct some spurious piece of
"research".
> Exactly, although the camera may not be the most compelling example. I
> would start with a hobbled Mozilla-based browser that doesn't support
> extensions. Even its strongest, most hyped feature is severely
> limited.
No PDA-sized browser is going to support all the hopelessly-broken web
pages out there in the way that FF does, alas. But a version of
Javascript that worked properly would be nice.
///Peter
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Re: Default PIM software
Mark Haury 11/23/08 00:26:24Peter Flynn wrote:
> Is there anything available in Diablo or OS2008 that uses the camera
> successfully? (Just curious)
The list of apps that I posted before: I've used "Camera", "GPS-Camera", and
"Videocamera" successfully.
Mark
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Re: Default PIM software
Mark Haury 11/23/08 00:38:09Peter Flynn wrote:
> Is there anything available in Diablo or OS2008 that uses the camera
> successfully? (Just curious)
>
Er.. you may be referring to networked apps again. I don't know of any. The last
time I checked, Skype and Gizmo didn't support the camera. Somebody correct me
if that's changed. I can't find anything else.
Mark
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