email address as bugtracker link for non-small projects?

http://wiki.maemo.org/Packaging#Bugtracker_location states
"It is possible to [...] use [...] an email address."
No mentioning of size of project.

http://wiki.maemo.org/Extras-testing/QA_Checklist#Lack_of_bug_reporting_database states "An e-mail address for small projects (wallpapers, for example) can be used".

Now which one is correct? (Plus the same topic/info with slight
differences spread on different pages is not cool.)

Asking for clarification because of discussion on
http://maemo.org/packages/package_instance/view/fremantle_extras-testing_non-free_armel/mycontacts/0.9.13-1/

andre
--
Andre Klapper (maemo.org bugmaster)

Andre,

An open public tracker is a nice thing to have (for obvious reasons), but
some projects do not.
If any testers are unsure of the responsiveness, perhaps they could send a
test mail to the address and thumb up if responded to?
It seems like a reasonable mechanism to connect the developer with the
testers?

The test mail itself could also include a link to a page on the wiki
indicating the benefits of a public tracker..

my 2c

Gary

On Wed, Aug 25, 2010 at 11:00 AM, Andre Klapper <aklapper@openismus.com>wrote:

> http://wiki.maemo.org/Packaging#Bugtracker_location states
> "It is possible to [...] use [...] an email address."
> No mentioning of size of project.
>
>
> http://wiki.maemo.org/Extras-testing/QA_Checklist#Lack_of_bug_reporting_databasestates "An e-mail address for small projects (wallpapers, for example) can
> be used".
>
> Now which one is correct? (Plus the same topic/info with slight
> differences spread on different pages is not cool.)
>
> Asking for clarification because of discussion on
>
> http://maemo.org/packages/package_instance/view/fremantle_extras-testing_non-free_armel/mycontacts/0.9.13-1/
>
> andre
> --
> Andre Klapper (maemo.org bugmaster)
>
>

Hi,

Andre Klapper wrote:
> http://wiki.maemo.org/Packaging#Bugtracker_location states
> "It is possible to [...] use [...] an email address."
> No mentioning of size of project.

This just means that an email address will get past the general
packaging check.

> http://wiki.maemo.org/Extras-testing/QA_Checklist#Lack_of_bug_reporting_database states "An e-mail address for small projects (wallpapers, for example) can be used".

And this says that an email address should only be used for small projects.

> Now which one is correct? (Plus the same topic/info with slight
> differences spread on different pages is not cool.)

I don't see any inconsistency myself. In the case of mycontacts, the
question comes down to how many bug reports there are - if it's a
couple, then an email address doesn't seem unappropriate. If it's a
couple of dozen, then it probably is.

> Asking for clarification because of discussion on
> http://maemo.org/packages/package_instance/view/fremantle_extras-testing_non-free_armel/mycontacts/0.9.13-1/

Understood. Thumbs down isn't a nice way to signal that it'd be better
to use a bug tracker.

IMHO, the use of an email address for bug tracking should not be a
reason to -1 a project, but certainly maintainers should be encouraged
to set up a better bug tracker if they have "rich functionality".

Cheers,
Dave.

--
maemo.org docsmaster
Email: dneary@maemo.org
Jabber: bolsh@jabber.org

On Wed, Aug 25, 2010 at 12:43, Dave Neary <dneary@maemo.org> wrote:
>
> Understood. Thumbs down isn't a nice way to signal that it'd be better
> to use a bug tracker.

Agreed.

> IMHO, the use of an email address for bug tracking should not be a
> reason to -1 a project, but certainly maintainers should be encouraged
> to set up a better bug tracker if they have "rich functionality".

Agreed. I don't think the quality of *this* version of the software is
diminished by having a mailto: link. The source is available and it
only increases the amount of work on the maintainer if they end up
getting lots of duplicate reports because no-one can check first.

Cheers,

Andrew

--
Andrew Flegg -- mailto:andrew@bleb.org  |  http://www.bleb.org/
Maemo Community Council chair

On Wed, Aug 25, 2010 at 7:46 AM, Andrew Flegg <andrew@bleb.org> wrote:

> Agreed. I don't think the quality of *this* version of the software is
> diminished by having a mailto: link. The source is available and it
> only increases the amount of work on the maintainer if they end up
> getting lots of duplicate reports because no-one can check first.
>

As mentioned previously, a bugtracker is great to streamline reporting
of bugs. This is especially important for complex applications like
the one in question. It would also help save time for testers
reporting possibly the same issues via email or in comments which are
difficult to reference when a new version appears in the queue.

This application is in the non-free section. Is the source open?

Regards,
Mustali

Am 25.08.2010 13:43, schrieb Dave Neary:
> Hi,
>
> Andre Klapper wrote:
>> http://wiki.maemo.org/Packaging#Bugtracker_location states
>> "It is possible to [...] use [...] an email address."
>> No mentioning of size of project.
>
> This just means that an email address will get past the general
> packaging check.
>
>> http://wiki.maemo.org/Extras-testing/QA_Checklist#Lack_of_bug_reporting_database states "An e-mail address for small projects (wallpapers, for example) can be used".
>
> And this says that an email address should only be used for small projects.
>
>> Now which one is correct? (Plus the same topic/info with slight
>> differences spread on different pages is not cool.)
>
> I don't see any inconsistency myself. In the case of mycontacts, the
> question comes down to how many bug reports there are - if it's a
> couple, then an email address doesn't seem unappropriate. If it's a
> couple of dozen, then it probably is.
>
>> Asking for clarification because of discussion on
>> http://maemo.org/packages/package_instance/view/fremantle_extras-testing_non-free_armel/mycontacts/0.9.13-1/
>
> Understood. Thumbs down isn't a nice way to signal that it'd be better
> to use a bug tracker.
>
> IMHO, the use of an email address for bug tracking should not be a
> reason to -1 a project, but certainly maintainers should be encouraged
> to set up a better bug tracker if they have "rich functionality".

I have to disagree.

As written a few weeks ago at the testingsquad mailing list:
https://garage.maemo.org/pipermail/testingsquad-list/2010-August/000116.html

there are good reasons for bugtrackers and _against_ mail adresses:

> Beside all technical reasons which make a reporting solution failing...
> I never would force developers to do something or not. Even if the
> choice of their preferred way to send bugs is something good for
> themselves (often) but bad for reporters (email).
>
> But here we are talking about the _extras_ repository which _is enabled
> by default_ on the n900 and it shouldn't be only the decision of the
> developer what kind of reporting tool is used.
>
> If the developer _never_ gives a reaction on bug reports...
>
> 1. ...by mail reporters will send more and more reports to the address
> without getting a feedback what is very frustrating.
>
> 2. ...by a tracker like the one in garage the reporter has the chance to
> see what is already reported and a decision to report or not to report
> could be done easily.
>
> Developing apps costs a lot of time and effort but reporting bugs in a
> good way also needs a lot of time. So at least for the apps in extras
> there should be a higher level of reporting possibility than mailing.

Even yesterday I got an email from a developer who wrote that the bug in
his applications is already known but he does not have time to fix it
yet. I bet I was the 5. or maybe 10. guy who was mailing him. I'm able
to understand that people don't have time but that's why I also would
like to see that developers understand that _I_ don't have unlimited
time too.

As solution for this problem I would love to see a whitelist of projects
which allow email adresses:

* themes
* background pictures
* "applications" which only put data into the users directory (e.g. more
ringtones...)

What do you think?

--
Uwe Kaminski
http://internettabletblog.de

Hi,

Uwe Kaminski wrote:
> As solution for this problem I would love to see a whitelist of projects
> which allow email adresses:
>
> * themes
> * background pictures
> * "applications" which only put data into the users directory (e.g. more
> ringtones...)
>
> What do you think?

I agree with Uwe and think his proposal is valid. Honestly, I wouldn't
mind if everyone was help to the same level of expectation. Still, I
understand that some people (e.g., the ones who submit "creative"
support for Maemo devices) just might not have the skillset required (or
the interest) to deal with bugtrackers.

Tim

--
http://samoff.com

Am 25.08.2010 13:00, schrieb Andre Klapper:
> http://wiki.maemo.org/Packaging#Bugtracker_location states
> "It is possible to [...] use [...] an email address."
> No mentioning of size of project.
>
> http://wiki.maemo.org/Extras-testing/QA_Checklist#Lack_of_bug_reporting_database states "An e-mail address for small projects (wallpapers, for example) can be used".
>
> Now which one is correct? (Plus the same topic/info with slight
> differences spread on different pages is not cool.)

IMO there should be a clear definition. Assuming that we have discussed
proposals and also assuming we have a clear picture. Who is responsible
to decide at the end which rule is valid?

People with the highest karma in bug reporting?

I also think this discussion should be put to t.m.o as many developers
and testers reading messages only there. Hence:
http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=798101#post798101

Best regards Uwe

--
Uwe Kaminski
http://internettabletblog.de

On Wed, Aug 25, 2010 at 18:06, Uwe Kaminski <jukey@ju-key.de> wrote:
> Am 25.08.2010 13:43, schrieb Dave Neary:
>>
>> IMHO, the use of an email address for bug tracking should not be a
>> reason to -1 a project, but certainly maintainers should be encouraged
>> to set up a better bug tracker if they have "rich functionality".
>
> I have to disagree.
>
> As written a few weeks ago at the testingsquad mailing list:
> https://garage.maemo.org/pipermail/testingsquad-list/2010-August/000116.html

However the Testing Squad is a group for applying the policy, not
making it. The correct place for the discussion is here.

> there are good reasons for bugtrackers and _against_ mail adresses:
>
>> Beside all technical reasons which make a reporting solution failing...
>> I never would force developers to do something or not.

Except you are?

>> Even if the choice of their preferred way to send bugs is something
>> good for themselves (often) but bad for reporters (email).

There's no evidence that email is bad for *reporters*. In fact, it's
easier: there's no need to check for duplicates. You fire off an email
which says what the steps to reproduce are, what you expected to
happen, what happened and how reproducible it is; along with
environmental information.

>> But here we are talking about the _extras_ repository which _is enabled
>> by default_ on the n900 and it shouldn't be only the decision of the
>> developer what kind of reporting tool is used.
>>
[snip]

However, users using the Extras repository (which is, as you say,
enabled out-of-the-box) are exposed to it through HAM: this makes no
exposure of the bug tracker field. Only if a user goes to
maemo.org/downloads/ will they see the "Report a bug against this
application".

At that point, it reflects badly on the developer if they never
respond to a bug report. Just as it reflects badly on the developer if
the application crashes when you press buttons A, B & C in order
(which may not have been picked up by the QA rules).

The QA criteria are NOT designed to make every single package on
maemo.org excellent. It's purpose is to ensure that maemo.org packages
do not fundamentally damage users' expectations. Not many users will
have expectations of good bug tracking, and so this shouldn't prevent
otherwise good quality packages from getting into Extras.

> Even yesterday I got an email from a developer who wrote that the
> bug in his applications is already known but he does not have time
> to fix it yet. I bet I was the 5. or maybe 10. guy who was mailing
> him. I'm able to understand that people don't have time but that's
> why I also would like to see that developers understand that _I_
> don't have unlimited time too.

Then don't spend ages reporting bugs in applications which have only
email-based mechanisms. Or send a quick mail first and ask if the
developer needs more info.

> As solution for this problem I would love to see a whitelist of projects
> which allow email adresses:

I am strongly against this, for the reasons outlined above. We
shouldn't be putting up *unnecessary* barriers to someone getting
their application into Extras, and this *is* one of those, IMHO.

Cheers,

Andrew

--
Andrew Flegg -- mailto:andrew@bleb.org  |  http://www.bleb.org/
Maemo Community Council chair

As an aside...

Andrew Flegg wrote:
> At that point, it reflects badly on the developer if they never
> respond to a bug report. Just as it reflects badly on the developer if
> the application crashes when you press buttons A, B & C in order
> (which may not have been picked up by the QA rules).

If I remember correctly, when I began using Maemo, this was not the
case... In fact, it reflected badly on Maemo, not the developer. As a
new user of linux, open source, etc., people aren't atuned to the fact
that individuals make the stuff, but that the "Org" is repsponsible.

Tim

--
http://samoff.com